Reform voters may not be racist but they are at least dangerously naive

[ChocolateMagnum]

AIBU to accept that some Reform voters may not actually be racist, but to be pretty certain that, if they're not, they are at the very least dangerously naive?

I thought we all got taught at school about how fascism took over in 1939s Germany? And there's so much out there at the moment showing why we are at a dangerous turning point in history again.

Why is it that the so-called non-racist Reform voters not see that they are aligning themselves with a covertly racist and fascist-leaning party and that their support risks tipping the balance towards a fascist dictatorship in the UK?

No, they’re not all thick and uneducated. You’re not morally or intellectually superior OP. And they may have other historical reference points than the lazy comparisons to 1930’s Germany.

I didn't say they were thick and uneducated. I said they were naive. Why is comparing the current slide in the UK and the US (which are connected) to 1930s Germany lazy? Can you genuinely not see the parallels?

I don't know why they don't see it.
I know a fair few Reform voters. They are usually quite nostalgic especially about the second world war and it's deeply ironic that these Churchill worshippers, had they lived in 1930s Germany, would have voted for Hitler.
I feel that there's an element especially with retired people, that rolling GB news is a form of brainwashing.
The country is in a state but Reform government would be an absolute disaster, you can judge the calibre of the people that have been elected from their ranks from UKIP days onwards.
There are certainly educated people among them. I would say that they are the puppet masters and/or the people who see a good route to the gravy train.

You are being utterly unreasonable, OP. We are all entitled to our opinions, and many people want a much firmer grip on immigration, most particularly illegal immigration that not only endangers the lives of those undertaking such a journey, but also puts a huge strain on the finances and infrastructure of our country. Whether or not Reform will be able to do anything effective about it remains to be seen - but you cannot blame Reform members from thinking that the other parties have failed utterly in their duty to defend our borders. I am not a reform voter, but I can understand why people are despairing of the mainstream political parties.

You underestimate the majority’s feelings on this. MN is a left-leaning echo chamber and no reflection on society as a whole. 72% of the voting public in the UK wants immigration numbers lowered.

Do you remember MN pre-Brexit when everyone here was absolutely convinced it wouldn’t happen and anyone who offered a different opinion was abused and shamed into silence?

How did that work out? Shock and horror and ‘how could this happen?’ Because you insist on writing people off as naive fools instead of engaging with their concerns and listening.

1. I'm not saying people can't have an opinion
2. I also haven't said that they are necessarily wrong in worrying about immigration
3. I also haven't said that the main political parties are getting it right

What I've said is that Reform and all that goes along with it, is a slippery slope and I think people who trust that they are the answer are dangerously naive.

I wonder whether any Reform voters ever ask themselves why leaving the EU didn't actually fix anything.

I'm not talking about immigration. I'm talking about Reform and all that goes with it. Where is your evidence that I am refusing to listen to concerns or abusing anyone?

I'm scared. I'm scared because Hitler also subtly blamed 'others' for problems in 1939s Germany. He was also charismatic. And his rhetoric was extremely similar to Trump's and Farage's. This isn't a lazy comparison. Show me what's different?

I agree OP, the trouble is the lessons of the past seem to have been well and truly forgotten. I believe politics needs to be a compulsory part of the school curriculum, because many people have trouble applying any critical thinking skills when it comes to what politicians promise them.

I agree with the naivety, I expect many do not realise what would happen to the NHS especially and other public services.

I am concerned about illegal immigration- who isn't? I would have voted reform before I was awakened to the truth of the party which NF declared recently in the press conference. He wants to revoke the status of legal settled immigrants which will affect my family personally. My husband will never be able to earn £60k plus a year so he won't be welcome apparently. The thing is even if he could I think it's clear to me now that Nigel would keep upping the limit on who can stay till he rids the country of any and all foreign born people.

I don’t think all Reform supporters are racist. I understand that you can be concerned about immigration without being racist-or indeed a Reform supporter. I do think, however, that Farage and the other leaders of the Reform Party are deliberately pandering to the lowest common denominator of the voting pool and that definitely includes lots of racists. Farage’s “they’re eating our swans” bollocks is an excellent example of this.

I remember the EU referendum topic on Mumsnet bre-Brexit.

Specifically, I remember the sheer quantity of shitposting and fake news which was utterly impossible to combat.

If that discussion hadn't been hidden away in a corner of the site no one looked at, perhaps Mumsnet users would have realised what remainers were up against.

I agree; GB "News" has a lot to answer for; my 92 year old dad has it on all day, and believes every word they say. He has 3 daughters and 2 grand daughters, and appears not to give a stuff how a Reform government would affect them.

I agree, OP. Another thing I find hard to understand is the naivety around the impact this will have all ethnic minorities. I was born here, but my parents were born in India. They came here legally and are British citizens. My citizenship hasn’t stopped nasty racists shouting at me to go back to where I came from. The naive supporters either do know this will happen and don’t care because they think it’s a price worth paying, or are completely blinded to the impact Reform’s dehumanising and racist rhetoric will have on people like me.

I worry that the measures regarding eligibility for Indefinite Leave to Remain- both those proposed by Reform and those now parroted by Labour- will leave women disproportionately vulnerable. Those trailing spouses who come here and raise kids contribute a lot to society but not always in a quantifiable way. With the constant rise of childcare fees, it will really fuck with stay at home mums from other countries, with potentially horrifying consequences. What if they're trapped in a marriage they want to leave but can't because they might lose their residence status and not be able to take their children with them? (which can already be an issue btw) Has anyone even given that half a second's thought? Labour is being weak and disgusting by constantly trying to out Reform Reform. I want a truly socially minded government with a pragmatic approach to business which will boost our economy. Seems too much to ask...

Do you worry for the future of the UK under a Labour government? If not why not?

If you dont like Reform, you have a very short window of time to present to the people that do like Reform, a better alternative, that engaged with thier fears but offers better workable solutions to those concerns.

I do think some Reform voters are naive, but I dont think feeling that gives them a political party that they can vote for.

And there it is ..critical thinking. I always play ‘critical thinking’ bingo on these threads.
The left and their legendary critical thinking always wheeled out when describing people with a different opinion 🙄

I think a lot of people don’t love Reform, but they have the common sense to realise we can’t be importing the third world and paying for them to be housed and on benefits. That’s the reality, we have either been importing cheap Eastern European labour, who did work but the vast majority were paid top off of tax credits or universal credit or their rent, they were not net contributors once their top benefits were added. Now we are importing from poor from backward countries. Don’t be so complacent to think this won’t seriously cause damage to our country. The poor will be affected the most. A huge amount of Muslims have been imported you won’t be so virtual signalling when women’s rights get eroded in the next 30 years and we become like Iran. What do you think will happen in 20/30 years if we continue like this? Don’t give me they’ll be working my friends work in benefits the women don’t work, have lots of kids and the men do uber for just 16 hours a week they can maximise their benefits. Please tell me where your naivety thinks this will end if nothing is done?

I feel that there's an element especially with retired people, that rolling GB news is a form of brainwashing

I think this plays a massive part in things; it’s not so much that reform voters are thick, or racist (although pretty much all the racists will be voting reform), it’s that many of them are simply disengaged. It’s very easy, if all you consume in the media is from the likes of GBnews, the Mail, Sun, or Telegraph to believe to come to believe that all of the UKs (many many) problems can be put down to immigration because that’s the overwhelming opinion those outlets are publishing, over and over again.

It’s not to say it’s not a problem, but imo there are far far greater problems this country faces than simply laying it all on foreigners like these media outlets generally do.

But PP is right though. There is a tremendous amount of ignorance across the board when it comes to civic education. Most people don't really understand our institutions and what they're for. They also don't understand democracy because democracy isn't actually the default in human history.

It's not that they can't see it, it's that they don't want to see it because it allows them to continue blaming all of our problems on someone else.

I mean we have literal early stage fascism going on in the US right now with Trump and Farage is pretty damn pally with him. Not only that but Farage's good friend, close ally and ex-leader of the Welsh arm of his party has just been convicted of taking bribes from Russia, but still his supports turn a blind eye.

So you're right, supporters are incredibly naive at best if they don't see the dangers reform pose here.

You are being utterly unreasonable, OP. We are all entitled to our opinions

She hasn’t said you aren’t. She has given a view on those opinions, just as you have given a view on hers.

The UK is no different to the rest of Europe: left wing parties are all for immigration citing human rights of the immigrants, the electorate are all for stopping immigration in this volume citing their human rights.

Until left wing parties understand all European countries can't cope with the volume and the cultural differences, the right wing parties will keep winning. The Utopian dream of a socialist society with free movement is just that: an utopian dream based on the naivity that nobody will take advantage of loopholes and badly written laws. The theory is nice, in practice it is rotten.