Reform voters may not be racist but they are at least dangerously naive

[ChocolateMagnum]

AIBU to accept that some Reform voters may not actually be racist, but to be pretty certain that, if they're not, they are at the very least dangerously naive?

I thought we all got taught at school about how fascism took over in 1939s Germany? And there's so much out there at the moment showing why we are at a dangerous turning point in history again.

Why is it that the so-called non-racist Reform voters not see that they are aligning themselves with a covertly racist and fascist-leaning party and that their support risks tipping the balance towards a fascist dictatorship in the UK?

Because it is not true? People seem to forget how far to the left this country has moved. Farage would have far more in common with Churchill than Starmer.

Ah, the faux naivety starts.

Hang on, this is good. Opposition is a vital part of democracy and I support it wholeheartedly. But I have seen no evidence to suggest that Reform, if in power, wouldn't move away from that model and move closer to fascism. In fact, all the evidence suggests they would.

This.

We’re given the choice of either a fairly right wing, fusty boy’s club, or completely uncontrolled mass immigration of mostly youngish men from highly misogynistic countries who have Islamic theocracy as the only model of country they find acceptable.

I despair of the people who value their daughters so little they choose the latter. At least the former can be voted out.

If you're genuinely pro-democracy then you have to accept all aspects of it, not just the bits you like. Reform are arguably a right wing popularist party but I don't think you can accurately call the party fascist. You have to be very careful about being the boy that cried wolf. It is another form of extremism to seek to stamp out right wing parties for fear that they will turn into a fascist dictatorship.

having to walk past these large groups of men who state at them pointing and talking together in a foreign language as they pass by
I'm not saying that wouldn't be uncomfortable if you have to walk past a large group of men as that can sometimes be intimidating.
Why if they're not speaking English is it seen as threatening though? It's just speech. 😕
It's comments like that that people think tip over into some kind of prejudice, that they're being judged if they're just standing around and talking.

I’m sorry to say that it is the left that are showing the most oppressive tendencies at the moment, with police turning up at people’s doors to ‘check their thinking’ and making sure that people believe ideology over reality. When you are not allowed to say certain facts or beliefs because they don’t fit the party line or dominant narrative, then you know that oppressive forces are at work.

Where have I suggested stamping them out!?

There is so much random stuff being spouted in this thread about things I and other PP have said that we haven't. Have you stopped to think about why you're so quick to react without taking the time tob understand what's being written and responding with a bit of thought? You're basically proving my point with your current approach.

I think you may be struggling with logic. It not the logical outcome. Keeping posting the same thing over and over again in a thread doesn't make it true.

I think NF et al are very good at allowing people to imagine that Reform will sort out ‘the problem that they are most concerned about’ without in any way spelling out how their policies will
impact other areas of society.

Brexit was similar - allowing people to imagine ‘the Brexit they wanted’ then being really surprised at the negative impacts (and the lack of the positive ones they were promised).

Yes but the point is that getting the UK out of the EU (very much to the UK's detriment) is the only thing Nigel Farage has ever achieved.

Prior to the referendum he was all, "I'm not a racist, but..." and, "I'm not anti immigration, I'm anti uncontrolled immigration."

So he spent decades banging on about how we needed to leave the EU so we could take control of our borders, completely ignoring all the economic, political and cultural benefits to the UK from its EU membership, and now we're out, surprise surprise, it's, "Too many brown people!"

At what point are the people who were hoodwinked into voting for him going to realise that he actually is just a nasty little racist who is very good at manipulating people into voting for his, "We're not racist, but..." party, whatever it is called this week?

I remember you from the Brexit threads years ago and how you'd consistently felt let down by the government for years. The issue was never the EU (you were pro Leave if I remember right) and today the issue isn't immigration as such either. Can we not focus on what people do rather than what they are? If groups of men harass young girls in your town, they must face consequences. If a particular group behaves without consideration for the community and prevents access to shared resources, that should be addressed too. What are the police doing to make sure girls feel safe and what's the council doing to restrict any group from making mass bookings that exclude others? Focusing on immigrants and religion makes it sound like there's no solution and that certain people misbehave because that's inherently who they are- bad. I'm afraid that's the definition of racism.
I can see that cowardice and a failure to police communities properly has taken us to a place where people feel the way you do but it's not a solution, and Farage won't improve your life now anymore than he improved it when he convinced you to vote Leave.

If group of men were staring at you and pointing at you and then talking to each other in a way that you couldn't understand then of course this is hugely intimidating. The language difference is relevant because you have no idea what they're saying or potentially planning. They have the upper hand as they understand each other and you are very much in a weakened position amongst a group of already intimidating men. It isn't prejudice to suggest this. It would be exactly the same if a large group of men were talking in slang and you didn't understand what they were saying.

We have a democracy. It might not deliver the results you’re after. It’s still democracy, we each get a vote.

Which other party would you suggest to deal with immigration? That would bring it down to tens of thousands or less?

Current polling seems familiar 😉

I agree. What's your point?

The key issue is not the vote. It's the governing afterwards.

I wonder how many people that are so anti-Reform are actually directly affected by mass illegal immigration as some PP's clearly are. I live somewhere unaffected (yet) but can see where this is going.

To repeat a well worn point, not all Reform voters are racist but all racists vote Reform. They get dragged down by the fact that a proportion of their voters are the dregs of society.

It was in my post.

Since you’re asking again. You not liking the outcome of the next GE doesn’t mean we don’t have a democracy.

There is absolutely no evidence that Reform are planning to more away from democracy. What on earth are you talking about? Their proposal are to move to an elected House of Lords, and to have a referendum on PR - both of which are more lid dem / green party policies anything.

You are trying to stamp them out though by trying to persuade people on this thread that Reform being legitimately and democratically being voted into power will lead to a fascist state being established. Your argument is that it is 'naive' to vote for them and risk this almost inevitable slide into fascism. Why else would you start a thread like this? You obviously know that whilst most people might be happy to potentially vote for a more right wing party, they certainly wouldn't vote for a fascist party.

I think you need to take a second to understand what fascism is and how it differs from a right wing (or even far right) political party. Posters are responding strongly because you are using very powerful rhetoric to dissuade people from voting a particular way and then declaring that you are doing this because you love democracy so much.

Reform is going to bring immigration down to under 100,000 a year? How?

Double post.