Reform voters may not be racist but they are at least dangerously naive

[ChocolateMagnum]

AIBU to accept that some Reform voters may not actually be racist, but to be pretty certain that, if they're not, they are at the very least dangerously naive?

I thought we all got taught at school about how fascism took over in 1939s Germany? And there's so much out there at the moment showing why we are at a dangerous turning point in history again.

Why is it that the so-called non-racist Reform voters not see that they are aligning themselves with a covertly racist and fascist-leaning party and that their support risks tipping the balance towards a fascist dictatorship in the UK?

No name-calling has happened in any of my posts. My concern is that people voting reform are EITHER racist OR keen on the idea of a fascist state OR naive to the reality that Reform/Farage/nationalism/MAGA is all interconnected and that it is an evidence-based fact that the associated rhetoric represents proven hallmarks of the slide into fascism.

If you are, indeed, racist or keen on fascism, I disagree with you but am not telling you how to vote. If you aren't either of those things, it worries me that you're so wedded to immigration reform that you're prepared to risk a fascist government in order to achieve it.

I think of it as more "I'm more stuck in the past than someone voting Reform". A lot of people are too cozy in their benefit lifestyle to realise the wider the problems of the country.

There you go, muddying the waters with fact 😁

Except I don't think that's fine.
The issue with democracy always has been that it's perfectly capable of hanging itself with its own rope. Plenty of dictatorships start out as a popular movement. What makes a democracy a democracy is that the opposition continues to have a voice and an official place in the state's institutions. I could see no such thing happening with Reform - no more than I see it happening with MAGA. That's why a state needs strong guardrails to guarantee the rule of law. Are we strong enough in our institutions? I genuinely wonder. I'm happy for other parties to rule and for left and right to alternate. I'm not happy if one of them locks down power and removes all levers from its opposition.

So those of you voting Reform because Labour and the Conservatives are crap; and you're worried about immigration are happy with the risk that a Reform government is highly likely to lead to a fascist state?

Well, your concern is misplaced. I'd be more concerned about how we are going to pay this government credit card bill when they're gone.

More or less fascist than the Islamic countries in your view?

Are Reform voters voting for chaos though?

Maybe some of them are.

But then does that mean Reform voters are either people who are voting for chaos or people who are naive enough to think that Nigel Farage is capable of delivering anything other than chaos?

Why is that your comparator?

What makes me say that is how ruthlessly the voice of the 48% Remainers was quashed post referendum. All of a sudden it was only about leave and 'shut up we won' rhetoric. That does not bode well if reform (heir to UKIP and Brexit Party) comes to power.

Ask Farage. If you're going to vote for him, one would assume you think he has the answers.

Unfortunately that's the two options, yes. Either they want some sort of nationalist revolution. Or they believe NF can be an effective PM, which I think is deluded.

Because the alternative to Reform is such high levels of immigration from predominantly Islamic countries than an eventual change is Islam could well be in the future of the UK?

OP I voted Reform and so did my DH. We live in a town with a hotel used to accommodate asylum seekers. Large groups of men stand around smoking, vaping and staring at women as they go past. It's very intimidating and I know several teen girls who no longer go to the leisure centre as they feel so uncomfortable having to walk past these large groups of men who state at them pointing and talking together in a foreign language as they pass by. The hotel they are put in ajoins the leisure centre. It's not racist to want immigration tightened up. It's not racist to feel resentful young girls feel they can no longer use leisure facilities in their own town. The community centre that used to be booked by members of the public is now only booked by Muslims who use it as a Mosque. They have it booked every single day so Scout groups, wedding anniversaries or childrens parties can no longer hire it. That is why Reform want people to stand as local councillors so they can make bookings available to all in the community and not allow it to be turned into a Mosque so no one else can use it.

Why do you assume I'm on benefits? I'm not. I'm just pro-democracy and, while the current system is hugely flawed and scary, fascism is even more alarming and, to my mind, to be avoided at all costs.

I know a fair few Reform voters. They are usually quite nostalgic especially about the second world war and it's deeply ironic that these Churchill worshippers, had they lived in 1930s Germany, would have voted for Hitler

That's the bit that baffles me. How can they not see that?

Edit for "not all" of course before someone feels personally attacked 🙄

No it won't. That is a completely false assumption.

They won’t care. They won’t care until it’s THEM. And then it’ll be too late.

Can you tell me your understanding of fascism? Do you genuinely think fascism is the answer to the UK's problems? Obviously lots of people to. My concern is about the number of people who don't think that but do think Reform is a good party to vote for. They are the ones who don't really seem to understand what the logical conclusion is to current rhetoric and are blindly contributing to it. You may well be contributing with open eyes.

The problem is, if you’re worried about illegal immigration (I live near a hotel housing asylum seekers and have seen with my own eyes the impact). If you’re worried about your children and women’s right and safety, where do you go? There isn’t anywhere. The thought of voting reform sickness me, but what I’m also frightened by what I see.

I think you are being dangerously naive if you don’t recognise that Reform is forcing the government to acknowledge a serious problem.

The government were ignoring people with concerns about immigration. Now they are not.

You trying to shut down the conversation by claiming ‘fascist’ is not helpful.

What?

Goodness me, so why did Nigel Farage spend more than 20 years campaigning for the UK to leave the predominantly white, Judeo-Christian EU then?

Why was that a priority if the real threat to our way of life is people from Islamic countries?

It's not an assumption, it's a well-informed prediction based on good evidence and understanding of systems of government.

I’m a Remainer. You’re taking 2 conflicting views and acting like they apply to everyone.