Reform voters may not be racist but they are at least dangerously naive

[ChocolateMagnum]

AIBU to accept that some Reform voters may not actually be racist, but to be pretty certain that, if they're not, they are at the very least dangerously naive?

I thought we all got taught at school about how fascism took over in 1939s Germany? And there's so much out there at the moment showing why we are at a dangerous turning point in history again.

Why is it that the so-called non-racist Reform voters not see that they are aligning themselves with a covertly racist and fascist-leaning party and that their support risks tipping the balance towards a fascist dictatorship in the UK?

I don’t think all Reform voters are racist (or categorise any party’s voters in any stereotype). However, I do think some will vote for them because they want Labour out and right now there doesn’t look to be a viable alternative. To keep Reform out, Labour has to perform a miracle (and get a new leader) and the other parties have to do similar.

I don’t want Reform in power and I know my vote would be classed as a wasted one by many, because my party of choice won’t win. I’ll still vote for them though.

Exactly, and we hear the big plan to close the aslym hotels is to build new towns, around London to house them. Presumably they will call they New Kabul, Allepo Garden City and Milton Sudan to them even more welcoming.

In the western world we do not have a sustainable birthrate. Our economies need an average of 2 children per family to provide suppficient working adults to support those of pensionable age. However, we are currently running somewhere between 1 and 1.5 children per family. We need immigration to keep our economy going. I don't think this is too hard to understand so why are people thinking immigrants are the problem? Even those protesting they are not racist, must be so heart to allow themselves to be so misguided.

I don't really know what you expect to happen? In an ideal world every single human being on this planet would receive excellent healthcare. We know we don't live in an ideal world though and we have to be realistic about what can be achieved with the resources available.

We need to have a sensible discussion about how we best use the resources we have available. Pretending that we can configure to deliver even vaguely adequate healthcare to our population that's getting older and sicker all the time is unrealistic and cruel. We simply don't have the money as a country and it's very hard to fund everything through taxation. Following models adopted by other countries such as the Netherlands would be more viable than pretending the NHS is viable when it simply isn't.

What even is ‘fascism’ anyway? Everyone seems to apply it to whatever worldview is the opposite of their own.

The countries in the world who are closest to fascism proper are NK and a large number of Islamic countries. Islamism in itself promotes a number of traditionally fascist ideologies - public execution, women to be inferior to men, complete control over society and morality. So why is the left so in love with Islam and in favour of ever increasing the Islamic population of the UK?

And why are the disturbing incidents regarding blasphemy, teachers in hiding, forced apologies for dropping a Koran and anti-LBTQ mobs outside primary schools never mentioned? Are they not fascist enough for you?

The biggest fascism risk here is the UK being taken over by a right wing theocracy. And I would say all of the above if it was any other religion - but it isn’t.

Edited to say ‘Islamism’ as my phone changed it to ‘Islam’ and they are not the same thing. Islam as a religion is no more textually disturbing than any other religion, but it is applied a lot more literally.

I don't think all Labour voters are racist, but they certainly had a problem with anti-sematism in recent years. Labour mainly got in to keep the Tories out, now we've learnt that the Tories weren't so bad. Starmer has lower approval rating than Truss and she literally crashed the economy.

I don't believe they are all hopelessly naive or all uneducated people being led into...

It behoves us all to remember that facism immensely benefitted some sections of society, and we know that self-interest will always override every other consideration for some groups.

No it isn’t. You’re conflating two entirely different issues there. The county I live in has painlessly absorbed two new towns in the last 20 years. There’s no reason why others can’t.

The biggest fascism risk here is the UK being taken over by a right wing theocracy.

The US is well on the way to becoming one. Considering how dependent we are on them and how DJT (and even worse, JD Vance) loves to bully us into submission, I'd say the risk is completely underestimated.

No they aren't naive... Why is it when people don't agree with some things that accusations are made against them and someone tries to suggest they are naive or stupid or whatever it is.

People are allowed to make their own decisions for their own reasons.

Calling them names sounds abusive.

The hotel near me was recently closed down, the police had to ask them repeatedly to not hang around my daughters primary school or sit in the park just outside the school

My partner has a migrant hotel near him…..there are often men sitting in the children’s playground. Women with children won’t use the park any more because the men stare and make them uncomfortable. My partner has asked the men to leave on more than one occasion. The playground is in the middle of a huge field that has benches dotted around the outside so they could sit there instead

So while I don’t like reform and certainly won’t be voting them in, I am very concerned about the level of illegal immigration that is happening and the fact that the vast majority of these men have very different ideas towards women and children

I agree. That also concerns me - but we’re talking about the UK.

Why is it a lazy comparison? It's an important comparison and pretty clear. Don't you think we should learn from history?

I think reform voters think the conservatives have let them down and so they’re going to reform. The conservatives made numerous pledges under different leaders to reduce immigration levels and didn’t. They should have either explained to people why such levels were needed, or stuck to their promises.

I think most political parties rise to prominence when people are sick of the other parties. That’s what’s happening here.

It's not that simple. Firstly, we haven't exhausted our own labour resources yet. We have over 1.5 million people that are currently unemployed and looking for work. We have many more people currently economically inactive and many of those could be more economically productive in our society than they currently are. It is completely non sensical to import more labour when we don't have a general shortage. You can argue specific skill areas are different but we simply don't need immigration at the levels we are currently seeing to support this.

Secondly, it's about who comes here and their ability or intention to work. Around half of all asylum seekers granted asylum work. This is a huge economic drain on the country. You can argue the ethics and morality of allowing asylum seekers to settle here but the reality is that they are a net drain on public resources and the economy whilst skilled workers are generally contributors to the economy.

@Lonelycrab Yes there are far greater problems than illegal immigration (even though that is massive)..one being we are heading for Bankruptcy !!

I just hope that potential Reform voters (and those of other parties) take the time to read their manifestos to see what all their policies are and work out for themselves if the numbers stack up (Reform's certainly didn't).

Unfortnuately I can't see it happening.

It’s also Labour voters going to Reform.

'Dangerously naive' depends on expectations I guess. If Reform voters think that voting reform will solve our country's problems, then yes, i'd say that's dangerously naive.

If they're voting reform because they feel let down by other parties and want fewer foreigners in the UK (and understand and accept the consequences of this) then no, they're not naive, they just take a different (and IMHO rather bleak but that's just my opinion) view of life.

What do Labour want to do? They've been in a year and I still don't have a bloody clue. The only thing they seem to be set on is penalising private schools which is ridiculously niche. Everything else is just vague ideas and ambitions with no actual policy behind them. For a party that has existed for a century and been out of power for decades, you would think they would have had time to work up some clear policies with the detail behind them required to actually get stuff done.

Instead, we are a year in and we have already had completely unplanned tax rises and spending cuts that seem desperate and completely uncontrolled. The WFA fiasco and sabotaging the economy with an NI increase because they have hamstrung themselves by being unable to raise any of the main taxes.

Yay another "I'm more intellectual than someone voting Reform" thread.

Not every Reform voter is racist or naive. Some are just fed up with Labour and the Conservatives fucking up the country.

I'm politically homeless so it's not even like I'm going to vote for them. God knows what I'll do at the next GE.

I think it is very naive to think that Nigel Farage is capable of delivering anything tbh.

I would never vote reform.
I think though there is an unfortunate chance they will be or next governing party. If that's what the electorate want at that time, that is fine.

What I think is naive is anyone believing they have a workable plan that will stop small boat arrivals as quickly as they claim or their supporters want. They don't.

I hope you're right - but I think he is certainly capable of delivering chaos. That's his supreme skill.

Pretty much. If it makes you freel better.