Page 40 | Reform voters may not be racist but they are at least dangerously naive

ChocolateMagnum · 2025-09-29T07:00:52+00:00

AIBU to accept that some Reform voters may not actually be racist, but to be pretty certain that, if they're not, they are at the very least dangerously naive? I thought we all got taught at school about how fascism took over in 1939s Germany? And there's so much out there at the moment showing why we are at a dangerous turning point in history again. Why is it that the so-called non-racist Reform voters not see that they are aligning themselves with a covertly racist and fascist-leaning party and that their support risks tipping the balance towards a fascist dictatorship in the UK?

ThatBlackCat · 30/09/2025 06:35

sesquipedalian · 29/09/2025 08:23

You are being utterly unreasonable, OP. We are all entitled to our opinions, and many people want a much firmer grip on immigration, most particularly illegal immigration that not only endangers the lives of those undertaking such a journey, but also puts a huge strain on the finances and infrastructure of our country. Whether or not Reform will be able to do anything effective about it remains to be seen - but you cannot blame Reform members from thinking that the other parties have failed utterly in their duty to defend our borders. I am not a reform voter, but I can understand why people are despairing of the mainstream political parties.

There is no such thing as 'illegal immigration', @sesquipedalian . It is not illegal to seek asylum.

GabrielsOboe · 30/09/2025 06:36

ThatBlackCat · 30/09/2025 06:35

There is no such thing as 'illegal immigration', @sesquipedalian . It is not illegal to seek asylum.

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How would term those who deliberately destroy documents?

ThatBlackCat · 30/09/2025 06:48

1dayatatime · 29/09/2025 11:27

Maybe I can help:

So the core tenets of fascism are:

Economic intervention which is typically associated with the left
Social Welfare to address social inequality- typically associated with the left
Corporate State collaboration- challenging the notion of a purely free market economy. Typically a left wing view.
Populism - can be both a left wing and a right wing ideology.
Collectivism - state controlled education, health care, transportation, energy etc . Very much a left wing ideology.
Patriotism and Traditionalism- for example the surge in St George's cross flags being put up. This is typically associated with the right wing.
Conservative social values- for example traditional views on say transgender and what is a man or a woman . This is typically associated with the right wing.
Militarism - having a strong military which is typically associated with the right. However given current financial constraint in the UK it could be argued that neither right or left have the Government budget to implement this.

From a US perspective:

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@1dayatatime Re 7, WRONG! Knowing what a man or woman is, is basic biology. Unless you are saying biology is 'fascist'. And womens rights is not 'fascism', and most of us are left wing feminists. You are so completely ignorant and uninformed. I would suggest defending the Mens Rights Movement and erasing all the gains and safeguards feminists got us over the years, is actually truly fascist and right wing.

ThatBlackCat · 30/09/2025 06:49

GabrielsOboe · 30/09/2025 06:36

How would term those who deliberately destroy documents?

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Oh the old 'they destroy documents' myth.

Even if they did, which they do not, it still does not mean they aren't seeking asylum.

EasternStandard · 30/09/2025 06:58

ThatBlackCat · 30/09/2025 06:35

There is no such thing as 'illegal immigration', @sesquipedalian . It is not illegal to seek asylum.

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Stsrmer, ex human rights lawyer he is, shouldn’t use it in his messaging. Or at least those who point out it’s wrong could be more concerned about that. If the PM uses it people will here.

GabrielsOboe · 30/09/2025 07:07

ThatBlackCat · 30/09/2025 06:49

Oh the old 'they destroy documents' myth.

Even if they did, which they do not, it still does not mean they aren't seeking asylum.

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Erm, right.

Got it…

Flyingintotheunknown · 30/09/2025 07:08

ThatBlackCat · 30/09/2025 06:35

There is no such thing as 'illegal immigration', @sesquipedalian . It is not illegal to seek asylum.

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No such thing as illegal immigration eh? So why is the gov website saying ‘illegal migration’ then? As you can see, there really is such a thing as illegal immigration 😂

https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/illegal-migration-bill

Batmanisaplaceinturkey · 30/09/2025 07:08

Pollyanna87 · 30/09/2025 06:21

Couldn’t you claim asylum in literally any Muslim country? But something tells me you might not want to be a woman in Afghanistan or Sudan.

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So that's your solution? Pack us off to Iran or Afghanistan? What is wrong with you?

GabrielsOboe · 30/09/2025 07:09

Pollyanna87 · 30/09/2025 06:21

Couldn’t you claim asylum in literally any Muslim country? But something tells me you might not want to be a woman in Afghanistan or Sudan.

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Quite so.

Egypt quickly closed their borders to the Gazans after the 7 October 23.

BundleBoogie · 30/09/2025 07:45

Toastandbutterand · 29/09/2025 22:18

You are drawn to the racist opinion then?

Interesting.

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🤣🤣 You just can’t help yourself.

I am pushed away from the opinions of posters on your side of the fence. Especially when they start making up stuff I didn’t say.

Your accusations of racism are repetitive, meaningless and a bit desperate.

Thanks for your input though - it all helps.

At least the Labour Party are taking it all more seriously. You’ll be accusing them of rampant racism now?

Bumblebee72 · 30/09/2025 07:59

ThatBlackCat · 30/09/2025 06:48

@1dayatatime Re 7, WRONG! Knowing what a man or woman is, is basic biology. Unless you are saying biology is 'fascist'. And womens rights is not 'fascism', and most of us are left wing feminists. You are so completely ignorant and uninformed. I would suggest defending the Mens Rights Movement and erasing all the gains and safeguards feminists got us over the years, is actually truly fascist and right wing.

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I think calling everyone fascists just makes some posters feel good. Under the definition of knowing what a women is most MN posters would be fascists. Fortunately chatgpt gets things wrong.

BundleBoogie · 30/09/2025 08:05

Uggbootsforever · 29/09/2025 22:22

Nearly a quarter (23%) supported the introduction of sharia law in some areas of Britain

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/apr/11/british-muslims-strong-sense-of-belonging-poll-homosexuality-sharia-law

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Yes, this is an interesting one.

PPs seem very happy to ignore the homophobia that is rather baked into the religion.

Also the animal cruelty - a growing practice of non stun animal slaughter by just slitting their throats with just a ‘blessing’ to numb the pain is pretty cruel. PPs on here are VERY WORRIED about the foxes - what about thousands of animals made to bleed to death while conscious? We already seem to have waived our animal cruelty standards for this and labelling of halal meat increasingly supplied into supermarkets is patchy.

Pp is quite happy for there to be 24% Muslims. That is a majority giving power in many areas.

PandoraSocks · 30/09/2025 08:34

Toastandbutterand · 30/09/2025 01:19

Im Russian btw. Everyone hates me.

I woke in a panic thinking I'd implied I was religious earlier. Im not. Just russian.

So pleased check your sources. Read the policies. Do not vote based on what you read on social media. Don't believe the AI. Try to find out what's true for you. On your own.

You seems like a good person to me, I don't hate you and would much rather have you in the UK over some of the nastier posters here.😆 Don't let 'em get to you xx

dottiehens · 30/09/2025 08:41

ChocolateMagnum · 29/09/2025 08:12

I didn't say they were thick and uneducated. I said they were naive. Why is comparing the current slide in the UK and the US (which are connected) to 1930s Germany lazy? Can you genuinely not see the parallels?

Ok I wonder how do you view Corbyn supporters? Those are mostly the most naive of them all. Politically homeless here so do not think I am a Farage supporter.

BundleBoogie · 30/09/2025 08:58

Toastandbutterand · 29/09/2025 22:42

If you're actually interested.

I kind of think that my problems shouldn't be for others to solve. I see my issues as wider than just me. i don't want someone to swoop in and give only me a solution. I want a solution for everyone. Therefore, I'm not really into a thread about me. I'd have buggered off and not read it for 3 days. But I was really interested in this one.

I dont agree with you, but I enjoy talking to you and seeing your views. Even if I don't like them, it gives perspective.

Some of the other posters scared me.

But none of you know me. So I can pootle off and do my own thing.

If I had started a thread I wouldn't have been able to engage in the same way. I would have felt responsibility.

So I prefer to join others threads. Just my feeling. I expect it's super annoying. Sorry.

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Maybe you could also explain how looking at the proposal for reconsidering ILR for everyone is actually racist? This is all I was doing.

I am not interested in the colour of skin of people who have ILR. It is not relevant.

If you are arguing that a particular skin colour is disproportionately affected, then by that logic ALL national borders are ‘racist’. Which just sounds a bit silly.

So why are you repeatedly suggesting I’m racist?

Clavinova · 30/09/2025 08:59

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 29/09/2025 21:08

The European Court of Justice and the UK Supreme Court are two completely separate legal systems.

The Supreme Court is the final appeal court in matters of UK law, deciding on cases that have come up from the Court of Appeal, which originated in lower courts such as the Crown Court or the High Court.

The European Court of Justice deals with matters of European law, which is completely separate.

If, prior to Brexit, you wanted to litigate on a matter of European law, you would do that in the European Court of Justice.

If the issue concerned a matter of UK law, it would start in a lower court, then if granted leave to appeal, go up to the Court of Appeal, and then if granted further leave to appeal, go up to the Supreme Court. There is nowhere for your case to go after the Supreme Court. This has always been the case.

I don't know who told you otherwise, but they are either an idiot or a liar.

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MissScarletInTheBallroom
The European Court of Justice and the UK Supreme Court are two completely separate legal systems

Although I do recall this case, where the Supreme Court sought guidance from the ECJ;

A transgender woman who was refused the female state pension after she stayed married is to have her case examined by European judges.

MB had asked the Supreme Court justices in London to overturn the Court of Appeal's decision. Her lawyers argue that the DWP's reliance on domestic UK pensions legislation is in contravention of EU laws.

Supreme Court judges said they were divided on the issue and would look to the EU Court of Justice for guidance...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-44612117
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-37033868

Also, I see that the FWS judgment is causing some problems in Northern Ireland, partly in connection with EU equality protection and the Windsor Framework/EU Withdrawal Agreement:

https://goodlawproject.org/does-the-for-some-women-scotland-judgment-breach-the-eu-withdrawal-agreement/
https://www.lewissilkin.com/en-ie/insights/2025/07/03/does-the-for-women-apply-to-northern-ireland-the-equality-commission-for-ni-releases-guidance
https://www.equalityni.org/SCJ

BundleBoogie · 30/09/2025 09:03

JHound · 29/09/2025 23:36

You literally did say that. The posts are in plain view.

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MissScarletInTheBallroom · Yesterday 20:58
S/he also thinks Supreme Court judgments used to be appealed to the European Court of Justice so I think it's safe to ignore anything else she might have to say.

Yes, everyone can read my posts - I absolutely didn’t say that. You are lying.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 30/09/2025 09:05

BundleBoogie · 30/09/2025 09:03

MissScarletInTheBallroom · Yesterday 20:58
S/he also thinks Supreme Court judgments used to be appealed to the European Court of Justice so I think it's safe to ignore anything else she might have to say.

Yes, everyone can read my posts - I absolutely didn’t say that. You are lying.

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Apologies, I think I mixed you up with someone with a similar username.

AbsenceOfLoveIsJustAsBad · 30/09/2025 09:08

Haemagoblin · 29/09/2025 10:03

So what about the people who can't afford to pay for it? Sod 'em?

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It was only 80 odd years ago prior to the NHS that you only got a doctor if you could afford to pay for it. If you didn't you went without.

That's not very long ago so not really that unthinkable.

Same for the welfare state although there did used to be workhouses.

I think in the event of healthcare going private then people would change their priorities. Insurance for healthcare would be a priority bill, people would be more mindful of their health and eating, nobody would book a GP appointment then not bother turning up. In short we would all adjust. Same as I have to pay monthly insurance for dental care now.

A huge amount of people who 'can't work would suddenly experience a miracle and be able to work. For those in genuine need they would rely on family as they us to do.

Did you know that when the NHS first came into existence they had trouble getting people to use it. People just could not believe that it was free. It seemed like such a miracle and people were just used to not going to doctors if they couldn't afford it. I watched a really interesting documentary on the NHS in it's early years when it had just come into existence.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 30/09/2025 09:08

Clavinova · 30/09/2025 08:59

MissScarletInTheBallroom
The European Court of Justice and the UK Supreme Court are two completely separate legal systems

Although I do recall this case, where the Supreme Court sought guidance from the ECJ;

A transgender woman who was refused the female state pension after she stayed married is to have her case examined by European judges.

MB had asked the Supreme Court justices in London to overturn the Court of Appeal's decision. Her lawyers argue that the DWP's reliance on domestic UK pensions legislation is in contravention of EU laws.

Supreme Court judges said they were divided on the issue and would look to the EU Court of Justice for guidance...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-44612117
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-37033868

Also, I see that the FWS judgment is causing some problems in Northern Ireland, partly in connection with EU equality protection and the Windsor Framework/EU Withdrawal Agreement:

https://goodlawproject.org/does-the-for-some-women-scotland-judgment-breach-the-eu-withdrawal-agreement/
https://www.lewissilkin.com/en-ie/insights/2025/07/03/does-the-for-women-apply-to-northern-ireland-the-equality-commission-for-ni-releases-guidance
https://www.equalityni.org/SCJ

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In that case the UK Supreme Court asked the ECJ for guidance on an aspect of European law. And this wasn't specifically a trans issue but a sex discrimination issue, which was much broader than people who had changed their legal gender or identified as the opposite gender. IIRC it touched on all kinds of things such as the differing state pension ages for men and women and even women getting cheaper car insurance than men due to being lower risk.

PS - I would not trust anything from either the Good Law Project or Lewis Silkin, who are both well known for getting it wrong on this issue.

Uggbootsforever · 30/09/2025 09:09

AbsenceOfLoveIsJustAsBad · 30/09/2025 09:08

It was only 80 odd years ago prior to the NHS that you only got a doctor if you could afford to pay for it. If you didn't you went without.

That's not very long ago so not really that unthinkable.

Same for the welfare state although there did used to be workhouses.

I think in the event of healthcare going private then people would change their priorities. Insurance for healthcare would be a priority bill, people would be more mindful of their health and eating, nobody would book a GP appointment then not bother turning up. In short we would all adjust. Same as I have to pay monthly insurance for dental care now.

A huge amount of people who 'can't work would suddenly experience a miracle and be able to work. For those in genuine need they would rely on family as they us to do.

Did you know that when the NHS first came into existence they had trouble getting people to use it. People just could not believe that it was free. It seemed like such a miracle and people were just used to not going to doctors if they couldn't afford it. I watched a really interesting documentary on the NHS in it's early years when it had just come into existence.

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I agree. Giving everything for free hasn’t actually improved people’s lives, it’s just made them passive and careless.

Uggbootsforever · 30/09/2025 09:11

dottiehens · 30/09/2025 08:41

Ok I wonder how do you view Corbyn supporters? Those are mostly the most naive of them all. Politically homeless here so do not think I am a Farage supporter.

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Corbyn supporters have been the worst, scariest, ‘the end justifies the means’ people I have never met. They’re far more likely to enact 1930s Germany (arrested for social media posts, harassing Jews, national socialism..) than anyone else.

Clavinova · 30/09/2025 09:13

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 30/09/2025 09:08

In that case the UK Supreme Court asked the ECJ for guidance on an aspect of European law. And this wasn't specifically a trans issue but a sex discrimination issue, which was much broader than people who had changed their legal gender or identified as the opposite gender. IIRC it touched on all kinds of things such as the differing state pension ages for men and women and even women getting cheaper car insurance than men due to being lower risk.

PS - I would not trust anything from either the Good Law Project or Lewis Silkin, who are both well known for getting it wrong on this issue.

Edited

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In that case the UK Supreme Court asked the ECJ for guidance on an aspect of European law

It seems the UK Supreme Court were split over whether UK law or EU law applied.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 30/09/2025 09:17

Clavinova · 30/09/2025 09:13

In that case the UK Supreme Court asked the ECJ for guidance on an aspect of European law

It seems the UK Supreme Court were split over whether UK law or EU law applied.

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Which is why they asked for guidance.

Clavinova · 30/09/2025 09:22

MissScarletInTheBallroom
PS - I would not trust anything from either the Good Law Project or Lewis Silkin, who are both well known for getting it wrong on this issue

Nevertheless, one of my links was to the Equality Commission for Northern Ireland;

Several factors create legal uncertainty in Northern Ireland:

1. Northern Ireland’s legal position is complicated by Article 2 of the Windsor Framework, which may require continued alignment with certain EU equality protection. The Supreme Court also did not consider this in its judgment.

https://www.equalityni.org/SCJ