Marks & Spencers bra fittings and trans women - they've missed the point

[IdaGlossop]

A mother complained to M&S when her daughter was approached in-store by a trans woman asking if she could be of assistance. The daughter needed a bra fitting and was upset as she could see that the member of staff was male. M&S apologised.

Today, in response to the incident, M&S have announced that bra fittings are for biological women only. The solution to the mother's complaint is to not deploy trans women staff in the lingerie department! Banning trans women from having bra fittings discriminates against trans women and doesn't solve the original problem.

YANBU = M&S have messed up with this decision
YABU = Banning trans women from bra fittings protects biological women from being offered bra fittings by trans women staff

www.thepinknews.com/2025/08/18/ms-bra-fitting-trans/

The thing is there are genuine trans women and blokes getting turned on by pretending to be women. And it’s impossible to tell the difference. Genuine trans women are far more likely to use the gender neutral loo as they don’t need that affirmation and they care about women’s feelings of safely. Going about their lives as a women is enough for them. So that means blokes who barge into female loos are far more likely to be of the pervert variety.

Not sure what a "genuine" TW is or how one goes about ones life as a woman
They are men, whatever their intentions are and have no more right to womens spaces than my DH does

Yes agreed, but some feel like they are a woman, and just want to be treated as a woman, and don’t mean any harm. And yet there are some raging AGPs who want nothing more to barge into everything ‘woman’ and will scream and shout and stamp their feet if anyone tries to stop them.

Completely agree with Marks & Spencer’s decision however what if a trans man goes and gets breast implants -because some do?
I don’t see how they can avoid that then?

I'm not sure of you would consider India Willoughby to be a genuine transwomen (he's had surgery and takes cross sex hormones) but he has posted before about gender neutral toilets which he will walk past in order to use the female toilets. He would consider that being required to use gender neutral toilets is transphobic because TWAW.

I would argue that a man in women only spaces cause harm no matter what they look like or how they behave.
I would also ask how one can feel like a woman or be treated as one

Words matter and a lot of people do not understand the distinction between transman and trans man. One is a biological female and the other is a biological male ( trans man = transed into a man).

Most people posting here use transman with no space. TIM (trans identifying man) is for trans man with a space.

what if a trans man goes and gets breast implants -because some do?
Still a man. And he knows he is a man. Good men stay out of female only spaces and if he doesn't then he's not a decent human being is he. He's the type women are campaigning against. Nothing to do with womanly feelings or surgically changes but about decency, safety and following the law and men, of any shape or form, need to stay out of women's/girls spaces. It's not that fucking difficult.

@NumbersGuy

What attracted you to this old thread?

The idea of an underage girl?

The idea of a man being able to walk up to any random young girl or woman and discuss her bra size?

The chance to wave "your willy lived experience" on a public fourm?

🍿

Or the chance to tell off a few Terfs?

I don't get what the issue is with a trans woman or man asking women if they need assistance? He wasn't giving them a bra fitting. I feel M&S should have backed their staff member on this one. It's one thing not to want a biologically female, it's another to be "freaked out" by just being spoken to politely by a trans person. The latter is just bigotry.

Sorry should have said "it's one thing to want a bra fitted by a biological female"

FFS
You don't think there is anything wrong with a male staff member approaching a teenage girl on her own in the vicinity of the underwear department and asking if she needed help?
According to M&S this is NOT policy

The use of ‘hysterical’ and ‘Karens’ gives away more about you than you might want to advertise @NumbersGuy

I agree that any man who choose to go into a women’s space is a raging pervert, but there are transwomen who just want to be left alone and would never dream of going into women’s single sex spaces for that reason. Not all transwoman are dodgy, but those who choose to invade women’s spaces most definitely are.

It’s a linguistic problem, which is why self-ID cannot be permitted. Using trans a a suffix for women, men or gender allowed sexual predators to hide in plain sight. They need to be clinically diagnoses as suffering gender dysphoria or autogynaephilia (spelling?) or whatever else it is they are afflicted with. And our society needs to stop facilitating. Someone with genuine gender dysphoria won’t be offended by women not wanting to share the changing rooms with them. Someone with a sexual predation issue will. If we stop using language created to eviscerate women and start using medical terminology all these problems go away.

Many years ago, I had a Saturday job in M&S when I was a student. It was in the lingerie department. In those days we were all trained bra fitters and, whether we were in the changing room or on the shop floor, someone could approach us and ask for a fitting. I fitted women of all ages, shapes and sizes. I was never once approached by a make customer and we never had men working in that department. It was a safe and comfortable environment for something quite intimate. I think we did an excellent job at what is sometimes a sensitive time ( buying first bras, maternity bras, mastectomy bras all come with a lot of emotion). I really enjoyed working there. I wouldn’t be comfortable encountering a man, let alone a man in a frock in that environment. M&S made a mistake and have corrected it.

‘Transman’ usually describes a female who wants to be perceived as male. What you’re describing is usually called a ‘transwoman’ or a TIM (trans-identifying male).

The person you describe could take his own measurements and order online- there are lots of good measurement calculators online to use.

Or he could try a shop that isn’t M&S. He might have some luck at an independent bra shop but the decision will be down to the shop owner and/or the bra fitter as to whether they should have to measure a man for a bra. If no one wants to provide him this service then he’ll have to stick to online ordering. Maybe order a bunch of sizes and then send back what he doesn’t need. He could have avoided it all by not deliberately acquiring breasts that didn’t naturally occur on his body.

Popping in on this strangely reawakened thread to say that safeguarding 101…

Don't approach unaccompanied children (unless they are in immediate danger). Let them approach you if they need help, which you can then organise for them in an appropriate way.

If you are male then the above is particularly important due to the unfortunate record your sex has, statistically speaking.

Can you explain exactly why do you think it is ok for any type of male person to walk up to a random young girl or young woman and ask her about her underwear?

That is always true

But this one is in AIBU and months old and would have been well hidden down list and not even likely to pop into the similar threads and not even in FWR

Anyway..... M&S are not going to be happy with this popping up and trending again🙃

It doesn't matter if there is a space or not.

A 'trans man' is a 'transman' and this refers to a female person with a transgender identity.

A TIM is called by some people a 'trans woman' or a 'transwoman'.

Just have men doing bra fitting for men in the men’s section - sorted!

The issue is not that a female child was 'spoken to politely by a trans person' though.

The issue is that a female child was spoken to IN THE BRA section by a MALE person.

As people have said, accurate language is important. So is including all the relevant information.

NO female child should be approached by a male person in the bra department. This is inappropriate behaviour by that male person. And no, M&S should not have backed their staff member on this behaviour, it is not appropriate at all. That staff member should also not have been there in that department from what M&S have also said.

As a biological woman, I would not feel comfortable fitting a biological man with a bra. 🙄

Oh dear, what a shame if it trends again. I hadn’t forgotten about this and will never be buying clothes from M&S ever again, especially not underwear that may have been tried on by men. I wonder if they have removed the reviews from men wearing ladies underwear from their er site yet? Or are they aiming to replace their core market of women with men who like ladies underwear?

I’d be interested to know if M&S has made any changes to their policies or sanctioned any male staff hanging out in women’s lingerie section.