My 8 year old is out of control

[holidaymakers]

I am really struggling to get through the summer holidays, my daughter 8 is hateful and gets such a kick out of annoying her older sister, she hits her for no reason but to make her cry several times a day.

She is so rude to me and her dad and whenever we speak to her she shouts shut up.
If she’s asked to do anything we get a flat no screamed in our face.
I have confiscated things, removed privileges and she’s missed out on things but it doesn’t change the behaviour she just reminds us how much she hates us.

I feel sorry for her sister for what she puts her through, she is so kind and well behaved in contrast.

We have suspected ODD and ADHD for a while the doctor wants evidence from the school and we’re a long way off any diagnosis.

She constantly reminds me I can’t tell her what to do and I can’t make her, she hits me whenever I ask anything of her and she makes a high pitched squeal all day every day which is ear piercing and unbearable to hear.
She demands things instantly for example if she’s suddenly hungry she’ll repeat it while hitting me until she gets something or she’ll constantly kick her sister saying I won’t stop until I get food.
She is so angry, constantly talks through gritted teeth with fists clenched and I’m so jumpy around her because I’m constantly flinching I never know when she will hit.
I know I have to find a way to cope for my other daughter but I don’t know how.
I can’t think straight through the high pitched squeal, it’s driving me insane.
Her dad is at work all day but even he is drained within minutes of being home and is at his wits end too.
Shes ruined our life, our family, my daughters home life and if it wasn’t for my older daughter I’d walk away tomorrow and happily never see her again but I couldn’t leave my eldest. I feel so done, yet I’m also worried that if she continues to hurt her sister I could lose her if I can’t prevent it and I know I would never be able to look at her again if she caused that.

Bloody hell this is a very very seriously unhappy child

Not entirely sure that is a helpful comment. OP sounds seriously unhappy as well and deserves compassion and understanding.

She is unhappy but she gets taken out and treated and it’s never enough, she’s never satisfied, never grateful.

Sounds really tough. How is she in school? What is she like with other people? She is clearly very unhappy, I think from what you’ve said you need to limit the stick, it won’t work if she’s constantly punished, but you do need clear boundaries. By 8 she’s able to communicate fairly well, I would have a sit down, frank discussion, tell her you do not want to carry on like this, you need to work with her as much as you can.

Think about what you like about her, what is going well, try to focus on that and increase and encourage any positives at all.

I would also try to reach out for family counselling and/or parenting support, the school should be able to signpost to local services.

What is she like at school? What is she like outside of the home on days out etc?

Are you able to afford a private ADHD assessment? Or therapy to see if there is something else going on in the meantime?

During the holidays can you afford for her to have a few days in a holiday club to give you all a break? Or put your older DD in one to give her some respite?

That Sounds very difficult, poor you. What is her behaviour like at school?

I think you need professional help, go to the gp, request a TAF, get some support in place for you all.

I would get her a therapist to try and get to the bottom of why she is acting out like this. Can you pinpoint when this behaviour started?

Telling you think that her getting “taken out” and “treated” is what makes a child happy

How is your home op outside of her acting out- are you a non stop, always on the go house or more chilled? Are you and your dh rested and attentive? Is she minded a lot? Do you always do eg days put treats etc? Do you sit down and play one on one games with her, take a child each and do stuff etc? Just asking because we’ve had issues in the past and realised our house was actually just a big ball of stress, rushing, lack of absolute chill out time, not enough sleep, too much junk food, we’d let things like baking and chatting etc. slide. None of this might resonate but just in case.

Now I’d also add you need to look at how you react, are you measured or do you ban, shout, react jumping etc. Again just all things we looked at.

I have spoken to the school because the gp wants evidence so I have a meeting with the senco but she is well behaved at school so she’s masking well until we walk out the gates then she takes the world out on us.

I think her behaviour is getting worse by the day and settings she used to mask in she’s now unable to for example my mum didn’t ever see this behaviour but now she is like it with her and although she doesn’t have any friends of her own she does sometimes get invited out with our friends who have children and she is the same with them now when she used to be able to keep it in.

When did this behaviour start? What was she like as a baby, and a toddler?

Ok.

lets assume she has adhd and or odd.

first thing:

impulse control is a massive issue. Set things up so she has access to things as she needs them.

for example - buy a plastic box that has food in it that you are happy for her to snack on. You can put a load of fruit in there (we used to have open access to the fruit bowl at all times) and also some drinks.

re the squealing - in this weather (and actually more generally) get her outside as much as possible. Park, garden, etc. kids with adhd are much better outside where they can run off energy. Do you have a garden?

Hitting people - you need to enforce boundaries at a much lower level than you currently are. Don’t remove privileges- pick her up and move her out of the room. Think toddler distraction level not tween level. They may also both benefit from simple rules eg you cannot go in each other’s bedroom. This gives them space from each other. Put a bolt or simple lock on each bedroom door if she won’t respect it.

you may also find a martial arts class helpful. They re-in force the no hitting outside of class very strongly and it will also be good exercise and practice on focus for her (and if your other child does it then they’ll both benefit).

getting a diagnosis does not unlock much support. Meds are good but can be tricky. Negative reinforcement (punishments) tends to be less effective with adhd children largely because they are impulsive and just don’t think. The trick is to make the negative behaviour either impossible (lock the door etc) or give them free access to it (eg snack box).

What do you think is telling about it? We are constantly told as parents that our children need enriching activities outside of the home.
Instead of jumping down OPs throat with your scorn perhaps you could offer some useful advice?

Yes I always thought something was different, I just couldn’t prove it as nursery didn’t see it, my mum didn’t see it and for a long time nobody else believed it.
The school reports have always been good but just recently she’s given up hiding it.

This child is 8

8

and her entire family despise her

Shes ruined our life, our family, my daughters home life and if it wasn’t for my older daughter I’d walk away tomorrow and happily never see her again

and in response to me saying how unhappy the child evidently is…. Basically says she shouldn’t be unhappy cos she’s taken out

Can you ask Social Care for a Family Support Worker (may have changed title but basically it’s Early Help). The can signpost and refer to some support.
Have a look at The Solihull Approach. Early Help used to, and may still, offer this course. It can be accessed online for a fee.
I’ve seen massive improvements in children’s behaviour when parents fully engage with the approach.
I’m sure you’re doing your best and it’s clear you want change. It could also provide some evidence of your child’s challenging behaviours and your commitment to help both her and your family.
I wish you well, it’s not easy.

Personally I don’t think it’s what children actually need. Yes they need fresh air and exercise but it sounds like everyone is very overwhelmed. Sometimes everyone needs a rest and re set. Kids don’t need constant days out and treats.
I would try and completely take the pressure off as it’s the holidays. Do simple things at home, no rushing and try and re connect a bit.

You could try reading The Explosive Child and also looking into low demand parenting, Naomi Fisher has good advice. We went through a very similar experience with our son, and at 8 years it was so difficult, I had similar feelings as you are describing towards my DS because he was so aggressive and we were all traumatised by it. Including him. It's hard to see how much the child is suffering when you are being punched in the face constantly. Of course you love your child but it doesn't always feel like it when they hurt you so much. Posters who haven't experienced this can judge all they like but those of us who have, understand how complex this all is and how the trauma affects everyone.

DS was diagnosed with ASD and ADHD, and now he is 11 he is coping much better and is much nicer to be around. He still struggles massively with everyday life but he knows we are on his side rather than against him and it makes a huge difference to us all.

Sending you lots of good wishes OP

It is so very hard so I can see your frustration and concerns for you DD xxxxx

Thank you I have read the explosive child and many other books. How long did it take to get a diagnosis?

I think the diagnosis is a bit of a red herring, it won’t change much, she’s still going to be the same child. What you need is ongoing practical support for you, and this is what I’d be trying to get from school or the GP. I think a TAF is probably a good call, but a parenting course for parenting neurodivergent children may also be helpful. What you are doing isn’t working, so your approach to her needs to change.

She is doing okay at school, rather than seeing this as masking, I wonder if thinking about how she is able to keep control in this environment? Clear boundaries? Positive reinforcement? Is she feeling more secure at school or with your mum?

Her role in your house is the problem, she’s fighting against you and you need to change this.

Set up a camera and record her,
show this to the doctor and tell them you need help.
You need to do this to help your whole family.
If they won’t help call social services.
Right now you need any help you can get, for your own sake.

She tells me the reason she’s so angry is because she doesn’t get everything she wants and she doesn’t like being told no, she said she would be happy if we would just let her have everything she wants.
She also says she doesn’t behave like it in school because she tries hard not to but by the time she gets home she can’t hold it in anymore and it comes rushing out.

I think there can be lots of reasons that she can manage in school, maybe she likes the structure?

I would look into a cahms referral, I work with children and know how hard it can be to work with angry children but it really is a sign of something else, all behaviour is a form of communication and it may be something that can be helped with some counselling. I do feel for you though, it sounds so so tough!

Children at this age aren't always able to reflect this deeply about why they are angry, she probably doesn't really know.