My 8 year old is out of control

[holidaymakers]

I am really struggling to get through the summer holidays, my daughter 8 is hateful and gets such a kick out of annoying her older sister, she hits her for no reason but to make her cry several times a day.

She is so rude to me and her dad and whenever we speak to her she shouts shut up.
If she’s asked to do anything we get a flat no screamed in our face.
I have confiscated things, removed privileges and she’s missed out on things but it doesn’t change the behaviour she just reminds us how much she hates us.

I feel sorry for her sister for what she puts her through, she is so kind and well behaved in contrast.

We have suspected ODD and ADHD for a while the doctor wants evidence from the school and we’re a long way off any diagnosis.

She constantly reminds me I can’t tell her what to do and I can’t make her, she hits me whenever I ask anything of her and she makes a high pitched squeal all day every day which is ear piercing and unbearable to hear.
She demands things instantly for example if she’s suddenly hungry she’ll repeat it while hitting me until she gets something or she’ll constantly kick her sister saying I won’t stop until I get food.
She is so angry, constantly talks through gritted teeth with fists clenched and I’m so jumpy around her because I’m constantly flinching I never know when she will hit.
I know I have to find a way to cope for my other daughter but I don’t know how.
I can’t think straight through the high pitched squeal, it’s driving me insane.
Her dad is at work all day but even he is drained within minutes of being home and is at his wits end too.
Shes ruined our life, our family, my daughters home life and if it wasn’t for my older daughter I’d walk away tomorrow and happily never see her again but I couldn’t leave my eldest. I feel so done, yet I’m also worried that if she continues to hurt her sister I could lose her if I can’t prevent it and I know I would never be able to look at her again if she caused that.

Probably not helpful, but your daughter reminds me of Davy Keith from Anne of Avonlea (second book in the series). Marilla and Anne take in orphaned twins Davy and Dora. Davy is constantly misbehaving and also bullying his sister. They keep punishing him for bad behavior, but it seems to have little effect.

But as to you daughter, I think some posters here have given you good advice. Sorry you and your elder daughter have to deal with this on a daily basis. I can't imagine your 8 year old being very happy either. I think it's good you are asking for advice now.

Nailed it

@FortheloveofCheesus I cannot speak for every parent of ND children, but ime (as the parent of DS8 who has every ND diagnosis on the market, including PDA autistic profile) there is absolutely no correlation between discipline/consequences and the effective management of "bad behaviour" in ND children. I often come across well-meaning parents of NT kids who think DS just needs a firm hand, or a reward chart (FFS), and my response is always the same: if it was that simple, I would have done it years ago. The difference between you and mothers like the OP is not that you have "cracked discipline" and she hasn't.

DS does not mask: autistic boys generally don't. We first noticed unusual sensory behaviours at 6 months (e.g. screaming blue murder at certain tastes/textures/temperatures), he began sensory seeking behaviour at about 1 (smearing, which nearly broke me). He got his autism diagnosis and EHCP at age 3, was asked to leave his pre-prep at age 4 because of disruptive behaviour (documented since his nursery days), then was asked to leave a naice state primary after Reception. I'm not sure at what point you think I should have nipped this in the bud by being strict and strong, but "applying unpleasant consequences" to a child below the age of 6 months is generally frowned upon.

As it happens, I did instinctively try to discipline him out of doing things that would threaten his future in a decent school. I would confiscate a toy every time he hit another child, or snatched something, but I also ensured that he got a treat every time he had a good day. The outcome was unused treats, a wardrobe full of confiscated toys, daily calls from school reporting increasingly uncontrollable behaviour (including a memorable escape after deliberately urinating on a TA, in which luckily he left a trail of uniform and other detritus behind him) and a DS who regressed to bed-wetting and started headbutting the floor and walls until he bled. It turns out that a genetic neurodevelopmental condition cannot be disciplined away, even if you are really, really consistent at bollocking the child in question.

DS has been in a specialist school for ND children showing disruptive behaviours for two years now. They are massively successful at getting the best out of these children and their approach is the exact opposite to "unpleasant consequences". It recognises that ND children are often not choosing to be disruptive. (I say "often" because they all have the capacity to be a little shit for the hell of it!) They are not punished for having shorter attention spans, needing sensory breaks or having little impulse control: it is recognised as a feature of their diagnosis over which they do not (yet) have full control. They are given some autonomy over the curriculum, e.g. a choice of wellbeing activities, and controlled levels of responsibility, such as making toast or feeding the school's pets. DS smashed 3 academic years of progress in his first year, having spent many months refusing school whilst in mainstream, and is happier than I have ever seen him.

OP - sorry for the long explanation on your thread. Suffice to say I have been where you are, including the violence, and it's really hard. In some ways, boys are easier - they tend not to mask and you know where you are from a young age! Girls suppress it all and then explode - I have seen it so many times (and it's also why boys outnumber girls at DS' school by about 3:1). You have had lots of good advice on here and FWIW I think you should consider PDA. The PDA Society has been really helpful to us, and they also have a forum where you can chat with others in a similar position. One thing that helped me was to remember that autistic children generally have a developmental age that is one-third less than their actual age. It's easy to compare with peers without considering whether the behaviour would be a little more acceptable or understandable in a child who was several years younger than your DD. The behaviour is often anxiety-driven and ime it improves with age and with a change in understanding, acceptance and environment. Hang in there. X

Hi Op I empathise with you. It's really hard. My brother had adhd growing up I can say having a diagnosis did nothing to change the behaviour, it just might give you a bit more empathy from others about her behaviour. My mum and dad loved my brother but honestly hated him sometimes. He would ruin family holidays, days out, days in! You are right to be worried about your other child and her feelings as well. She is not her siblings punching bag! Those that haven't experienced a child with severe behavior difficulties won't understand these feelings. They are very real and very upsetting. Take a breather. Have you got some extended family that could help out and take her out for a few hours?

The only one on the thread. Not sure what their own issue is.

Sorry, that link doesn't work. Here is the group. It is helpful, but be mindful that many are VERY pro unschooling, so please don't be swayed if you don't think it'll suit your child or your family.

My nephew went private and then his diagnosis was transferred to NHS for his meds. We managed to get an appointment quickly and as a combined family including grandparents all through money at the situation.
Im sorry you’re going through the @holidaymakers . It sounds awful and so hard to manage.
I would throw any spare money you have at this. definitely get an appointment with a psychiatrist or senior child psychologist or both. it’s possible to see Tanya Byron privately - tho not cheap.
She may also need some form of weekly therapy and you may need some help with parenting this behaviour. This is not being disrespectful of your parenting but sometimes it’s helpful to have support.

How is she at school? Is she bullying and causing trouble?
How is her diet? Is she eating decent food or refusing? She may also need blood tests as she may be missing key nutrients. Hormones could be kicking in early. Is there any sign of periods coming which could be causing her extreme anxiety?

Because

1 the op describes her as “hateful”
2 the op would leave the family and never see her again but literally the only thing that stops her is her eldest daughter
3 her motivation for asking for help is because * I feel so done, yet I’m also worried that if she continues to hurt her sister I could lose her if I can’t prevent it and I know I would never be able to look at her again if she caused that.* she is worried about her eldest daughter being removed by SS
4 in response to posters saying she’s clearly very unhappy, the op basically says - she shouldn’t be because she gets lots of treats

I feel desperately desperately sad for this young child living with 3 people, her family, who clearly all hate her. She can’t articulate herself. She is entirely dependent for everything on people that think she’s basically the devil incarnate

and I find it heartbreaking

But you’re right
I am not the one for this thread and an outlier so will leave

Im sorry your family are going through this. Reading your posts you mention getting a diagnosis several times - what is it that you think a diagnosis will change? For many nd children it changes nothing I was given a diagnosis letter with a few national websites and that's the last I'll hear from them. After that its back to chasing GP for referrals it really changes so little especially as she masks at school what support would they put in place?
She sounds very negative about herself and I would put effort into boosting her self esteem. What has she done during the holidays? My child's behaviour is managed by being busy every day he struggles so much socially but as long as hes outdoors its 100 times easier if he was home every day he couldn't cope he needs structured activities, physical activity and now and next boards to manage

It’s so obvious the mother is letting off steam here and looking for support and ideas so that she can help her child and family in real life. I’m not sure why you can’t see that unless you’re being callous for the point of it.

Any advice though? What would you do in this situation?

That is not the normal behaviour of your average 8 year old. Something is going in with her wiring that makes her behaviour far more extreme than most 8 year olds.

Sorry - I meant we “threw” money - apologies

That poster hadn’t offered any advice but is only full of criticism.

@Laxoverhols , offer OP some advice, your opinions must be coming from a place of insight and knowledge so share them! Maybe you were that child, or that parent?

Supernanny is entertainment. They create a narrative around a family to make it seem as though the involvement of Supernanny resolves all the family’s problems, just through changing the way the child is being parented. The story is set up to show that the parents are the problem.

You are clueless. The op is crying out for help. I remember when I was about 11 my mum was sobbing and writing a note to her mum. I didn't understand at the time but it was a suicide note. She couldnt cope with my brothers behaviour. Luckily she didn't go through with it. The op does love her child but you can not understand what she's going through unless you live in her shoes. Yes the child needs help but so does her mother. If it is the case she is ND then she wont react the same to consequences as other children so people just saying punish her, don't let her ect is way too simplistic. You could take away all the toys, games, fun days out for my brother it wouldn't stop any of the behaviour it's like an impulse. I feel op needs support not people jumping down her neck. We have all said bad things about our kids we didn't mean when they have upset us, imagine that x ten everyday. She does love her child of course she does.

Getting diagnosed sooner will be worth it despite being expensive. Divorce or a parent having to stop work will be a lot costlier in the long run.

Someone I know is the older sibling of a violent adhd sibling. They left home at 16 to escape the violence and have very little contact with their parents now.

I don't know the process for getting a diagnosis but it sounds like that is needed. The fact that you always felt that something was off, makes be believe that something probably is. Other people get a snapshot of the child, whereas parents see the full picture. She hasn't given up trying to hide it, she is finding it harder and harder to mask. Agree with the previous poster who said that she sounds like an unhappy child, but that doesn't mean that you and the rest of the family can't be unhappy too. Taking her out won't help because it isn't what she needs, but without a diagnosis of the real issue, you wont be able to meet her needs. I have no answers sorry, apart from chasing and expediting the diagnosis, but just wanted to put a different perspective on it.

@Hereforthecommentz how is your Mums relationship with your brother now?

It .ay have already been said but I would put in a referral to social services.
They are a gateway to other services such as respite care, therapists etc.

I think we all find it heartbreaking. None more so than the OP, whose heart is clearly breaking. You’re an outlier only insofar as you think kicking someone who is broken is in any way going to be effective. How would that help this child you feel so bad for? OP has come here for support and advice and understanding. You offer nothing except criticism. So yes, perhaps better if you bow out.

All fair points you have made
hence I’ll head off

Pans/Pandas

Does she have OCD type traits, separation anxiety?