My 8 year old is out of control

[holidaymakers]

I am really struggling to get through the summer holidays, my daughter 8 is hateful and gets such a kick out of annoying her older sister, she hits her for no reason but to make her cry several times a day.

She is so rude to me and her dad and whenever we speak to her she shouts shut up.
If she’s asked to do anything we get a flat no screamed in our face.
I have confiscated things, removed privileges and she’s missed out on things but it doesn’t change the behaviour she just reminds us how much she hates us.

I feel sorry for her sister for what she puts her through, she is so kind and well behaved in contrast.

We have suspected ODD and ADHD for a while the doctor wants evidence from the school and we’re a long way off any diagnosis.

She constantly reminds me I can’t tell her what to do and I can’t make her, she hits me whenever I ask anything of her and she makes a high pitched squeal all day every day which is ear piercing and unbearable to hear.
She demands things instantly for example if she’s suddenly hungry she’ll repeat it while hitting me until she gets something or she’ll constantly kick her sister saying I won’t stop until I get food.
She is so angry, constantly talks through gritted teeth with fists clenched and I’m so jumpy around her because I’m constantly flinching I never know when she will hit.
I know I have to find a way to cope for my other daughter but I don’t know how.
I can’t think straight through the high pitched squeal, it’s driving me insane.
Her dad is at work all day but even he is drained within minutes of being home and is at his wits end too.
Shes ruined our life, our family, my daughters home life and if it wasn’t for my older daughter I’d walk away tomorrow and happily never see her again but I couldn’t leave my eldest. I feel so done, yet I’m also worried that if she continues to hurt her sister I could lose her if I can’t prevent it and I know I would never be able to look at her again if she caused that.

Ive looked this up and it does sound like her, so does ODD though so maybe it’s PDA instead of ODD only the doctor can really tell, I just know she has something.

^This. I only learned about this when my DD1 was 14 and we’re still waiting over 18 months later, though we’ve filled in assessment forms now, at least. (She’s 16 now.) So please do consider doing this now.

DD1 was exactly like your DD2 when she was 8. She also used to explode as soon as I picked her up. She used to hit me on the way home from school, even. It was only me she targeted, though she did occasionally hit DD2 as well (which DD2 remembers vividly).

To encourage you, though, the violence happened between the ages of 6 and 10 but then stopped. She still can get very angry and throws whatever is to hand but she isn’t violent towards me anymore. It was therapeutic support which helped here.

It was easier to understand where the anger was coming from in our case, because both our DDs are adopted. Though DD1 herself couldn’t vocalise it, and still struggles to do so.

You have my sympathy, OP, it’s very hard feeling like coping with a violent child in your home.

This kind of behaviour is so very hard to deal with and it is very difficult to get a diagnosis or help when they mask at school all day. There's an assumption that if they behave at school it must be a parenting issue but as many people know it is not always that simple. She won't be able to keep a lid on it in school forever though.

Unfortunately, parents really have to fight to get the referrals and assessments needed. Don't be afraid to be "that parent". I've worked in schools for years and what I've learnt is that while pushy parents don't make themselves popular at school, they do get results for their children. I've also learnt that a lot of "low level" behaviour is dealt with in school and parents are none the wiser. They may say she's fine but what they actually mean is that they can manage her at the level she's at in school. If pushed they may be able to come up with evidence. A lot depends on the individuals working with her and how switched on they are. Even if she is not misbehaving at all they should be able to pick up on social difficulties or signs of anxiety.

Things that might help in the meantime would be removing triggers. For eg clear routines around mealtimes so they are predictable. Access to help herself to healthy snacks whenever she wants would help avoid battles around hunger and food.

Think about ways of reducing anxiety (ultimately a lot of her behaviour will be triggered by anxiety) where you can. Make sure she has a good idea of what to expect to happen and when. A written or visual plan for the day could help. Allow lots of time for things to get done so she's not put under pressure about time. Avoid demands where possible and instead offer choices, for example "which shoes would you like to put on?" Instead of "Go and put your shoes on." Try and avoid punishments and bribes. Bribes can make them even more anxious and likely to lose control.

Most of all give yourself some grace. Managing a child like this is extremely difficult. It is OK for you to be exhausted and need a break from it. It is OK if you don't always handle things perfectly, you are only human. And sometimes it will all go wrong even if you did everything right, and that's not your fault.

Best of luck with getting her assessed. It definitely does sound necessary.

Can you afford a private assessment? The waiting lists on NHS, including Right to Choose, are so long.

PDA is tricky as it's not a diagnosis itself, it's considered (by some, in some areas) to be a 'profile' of autism. So she would need to meet the threshold for autism diagnosis.

Some don't recognise PDA at all. We strongly suspect our DD has PDA but she masks so well in school and appears on the surface to do well with social communication that we have little chance of an autism diagnosis.

But the diagnosis doesn't magically solve anything as others have said. So work on the basis of best fit and use the approaches recognised to help that condition, get on a waiting list or look at private options, and look for evidence of what seems to help (and what doesn't) to guide your next steps.

There are loads of posters on MN with PDA or suspected PDA children who may have advice or experience to share.

I'd suggest Early Help referral due to the impact on family/sibling regardless of presentation in school and to highlingt the need for further support/assessment. I also thought potentially autism with pda profile so any additional evidence would help with referral.
My other suggestion is to continue to support both children - it sounds like they have quite different needs and it will take some creativity to manage this e.g. doing things with each child separately. Hugs.

It could be autism and ADHD. The combination can make for demand avoidant children. The good news then is that ADHD medication is very effective although it can make the autism side more obvious.

You need to push for a referral - can you afford to go private.

I think constantly ceding to the demands for treats etc isn’t really helping things so I would hold back on this.

Make minimal demands but also offer minimal rewards. Why reward this kind of behaviour - but at the same time you need to get your child help with dealing with this. It’s not fair to leave her flailing

I do understand the concept of low demand parenting and I would advocate just asking very little of your DC - going to school and not attacking their sibling is enough. However in the instances I have seen of low demand parenting, it has resulted in a total power imbalance and the child not doing their GCSEs. Both children are now drifting with no ability to be people in the world and that’s not ideal either.

It’s a balance and i’ve the utmost sympathy for you dealing with it.

That isn't remotely what the OP said - you have cherry picked a sentence to justify posting something nasty to a woman desperate and asking for help and advice. That is far more telling.

@Laxoverhols unless you’ve got a certificate announcing you’re some kind of super-parent/top psychologist….i’d hush it up! She’s asking for support, not criticism

This is my experience but it has overall been a good thing. I’ve seen less of the autism side come out. It’s getting DD through school and she’s coping with sport etc.

I have and she always said it was school, she’s never liked school and will cling onto me until the teacher comes over and leads her into class, her reason is that school is all too much and she can’t take in what the teachers say and her biggest complaint is it’s sooo boring but at parents evening they always say she does so well and is so good once she’s in.

So with that in mind we made an appointment to see the Senco to see if there’s anything we can do to help her cope in class ( this is booked for September) but since the summer holidays when I thought she’d have a well needed break her behaviour has escalated to another level and she absolutely hates us and has become violent and started tics such as the high pitched squeal I mentioned in my op.

It doesn’t help that she’s got no friends so nobody to play with at school and then she comes home and her sister who loves her to bits and wants to play with her gets called names and hurt.

This sounds so hard op. I will say it IS ok to dislike your child's behaviour, hate it even. So if you do find yourself feeling that at times I think that's ok and perfectly understandable.

It could be shes masking, it could be that she is just an extremely disruptive child right now, for whatever reason.

You'll get to the bottom of it. Hang in there.

OP, that sounds really hard. :-(

I went through a really difficult time with one of my kids who was older than yours but who was violent, comprehensively oppositional, and verbally abusive. All. The. Time. It nearly broke me and was very traumatising to the whole family.

I don’t have any advice on how to change your child’s behaviour but I have a couple of suggestions in regards to the things that helped me cope:

• get counselling for you. You need someone to help you cope with the emotions you’re feeling. I did eventually and it was so helpful to stop me from feeling victimised and overwhelmed by my child’s behaviour. Showing my child that I was distressed actually made them worse - more cruel, more abusive. It made her feel both powerful and also scared. You need to maintain boundaries.
• you need support from wider family, in the form of respite if possible. Let your daughter go to stay with another family member - someone who loves her and you - on a regular basis, if you have a person like that in your life.
• be very careful who you offload to about your daughter’s behaviour. We live in a culture where other parents need to believe that this will never happen to them - the way to make that work is to put all the blame for really difficult behaviour in children on the shoulders of the parent. Having someone say ‘I’d never let MY child behave like that’ or ‘You just need to punish her more’ or any of the other unhelpful shit that people who don’t understand your situation come out with, will make you feel even worse, and that’s the last thing you need right now.

That’s it really, apart from PHONE Family Lives - I can’t tell you how often I sobbed down the phone to them. https://www.familylives.org.uk/

You also need to have your daughter assessed - ASAP, (I know you know this) If you can afford a private assessment you should do it.

This sounds so hard - for you and the rest of the family, but also your poor little DD. She is struggling, completly disregulated and this is the only way she can show you quite how bad it is. That doesn't make it easier for you, but know that she isn't bad or broken. Also know that you aren't bad or broken for feeling the way you do right now. This is fucking hard and relentless and I get that you often want out.

I agree with others - treat her as diagnosed as ND (probably ADHD and Autism). Go low demand. Seriously - it sounds bonkers, but it's the only thing that properly works for my older AuDHD daughter. Obviously there are still boundaries around behaviour (hitting, being rude, etc). But threats and punishment DO NOT WORK. They just don't, with kids with this kind of profile.

I've found some great support and advice on the Autistic Girls Network facebook group. I suggest you join it as there are many on there with similar issues and it is much more reassuring to get advice there, from other parents who 'get it', than on MN where a vast majority will have absolutely no idea of the reality of parenting a ND child who is struggling deeply.

And try to get some space for yourself so that you have more capacity to parent her.

Gosh this sounds really tough. But in my experience focussed attention on helping her build her confidence, and helping you set clear boundaries for her, would help you both. You would be surprised at the tools you have to help turn this around. Of course, it is exhausting and demoralising dealing with this kind of behaviour, but she is still the child who is exploring boundaries and doesn't fully understand how to behave, for herself and for you. I would strongly suggest a parenting consultant. Feel free to message me if you want any recommendations. You can turn this around! Wishing you all the best.

@Laxoverhols

Why are your posts taking such an unkind judgemental tone? The OP has literally come here to ask for help?

What do you gain from your snarky comments? Genuine question. The OP has literally come here to ask for advice.

Do you think it's helpful to just be rude and judgemental?

Do you have any actual advice / experience to add to the thread? To help? To educate?

BTW, one evening, at one point on my parenting journey when I was incredibly low and ground down by the constant oppositional behaviour and abuse, I told my daughter I hated her. She was a young teen at the time.

She’s 26 now. Every now and again she reminds me that I said that to her. She’s never forgotten it. We’ve talked about what happened, and how awful it was for both of us. We have a very loving relationship now, and I’ve apologised for things that I got wrong. She carries a lot of guilt for the impact of her behaviour on the rest of the family, and that makes me sad.

🙄

Telling you would come on a thread like this to judge when OP is clearly looking for support.

You can't let her hit people without severe consequences. She cannot be allowed to hit her sister several times a day or hit you until you give her food. You need to get control of the situation, you are letting her get away with extremely bad behaviour which is setting up a pattern for the future. She's 8 now what are you going to do when she is 16 and bigger than you?

There must be things that she values that you can take away if she hits or kicks anyone? You have to stop giving in to her and letting her do whatever she wants you're the adult. I just can't believe you let her hit her sister until she cries several times a day with no consequences.

She is doing okay at school, rather than seeing this as masking, I wonder if thinking about how she is able to keep control in this environment? Clear boundaries? Positive reinforcement? Is she feeling more secure at school or with your mum?

This - we had quite a structures weekend/hoilday time - out in mornings - groups/parks/walks/mususms/libraries/swiming pools - quite afternoons - lots of count down to changes - as I needed that to stay sane - could it be lack of routine making it all worse this summer?

Also do they have room to be apart - while it's nice yoru eldest wants to play - youngest may be getting nasty as she needs downtime ie quiet no interaction time - so does she have her own room or space in garden she can go for that?

Though as many PP have said parent like your child has ND - find what works for her and the household in general - which when you are exhausted is an uphill draining battle but does long term work.

This is heartbreaking. But also absolutely classic neurodivergent female experience. They understand social norms enough to mask behaviour at school to fit in. But they are nowhere near socially or emotionally mature enough to manage friendships. Age 8-10 is common for things to fall apart with PDA girls, usually a bit older in boys. Basically when social demands exceed their masking/coping abilities.

The behaviour you are seeing at home is probably a combination of a massive change in routine (as fundamentally, these kids are autistic) plus a release of a school year worth of masking. She drops the mask around you guys and you get all the nervous system dysregulation.

I would take PDA very seriously. Chances are she will just stop being able to mask at some point and it will get much, much harder to get her into school. If primary school is an issue, secondary school has the potential to be impossible.

Frankly, how much money do you have access to? If funds were unlimited I’d get her diagnosed by someone that specialises in autism in girls. I’d also get an OT assessment and maybe an educational psychologist assessment. I’d then apply for an EHCP ASAP.

This is incredibly difficult, and lots of good suggestions re family support because it can be helpful to have an outside perspective.
I’ve worked with a fair few children like this , families are exhausted , children are internally exhausted and angry and sad. One particular girl comes to mind who used to be so aggressive at home, she was very much demonised at home though, mum had a very different attachment to her and always had since birth as ND children can sometimes display different attachment behaviours which don’t always fit into ‘attachment styles’. So this girl was often behaving aggressively to end up making it so that siblings had to split off with dad and she had mum to herself at home. anyway that may not be helpful at all because there’s so much nuance and extra information none of us will know, that family support seems like the first step