My 8 year old is out of control

[holidaymakers]

I am really struggling to get through the summer holidays, my daughter 8 is hateful and gets such a kick out of annoying her older sister, she hits her for no reason but to make her cry several times a day.

She is so rude to me and her dad and whenever we speak to her she shouts shut up.
If she’s asked to do anything we get a flat no screamed in our face.
I have confiscated things, removed privileges and she’s missed out on things but it doesn’t change the behaviour she just reminds us how much she hates us.

I feel sorry for her sister for what she puts her through, she is so kind and well behaved in contrast.

We have suspected ODD and ADHD for a while the doctor wants evidence from the school and we’re a long way off any diagnosis.

She constantly reminds me I can’t tell her what to do and I can’t make her, she hits me whenever I ask anything of her and she makes a high pitched squeal all day every day which is ear piercing and unbearable to hear.
She demands things instantly for example if she’s suddenly hungry she’ll repeat it while hitting me until she gets something or she’ll constantly kick her sister saying I won’t stop until I get food.
She is so angry, constantly talks through gritted teeth with fists clenched and I’m so jumpy around her because I’m constantly flinching I never know when she will hit.
I know I have to find a way to cope for my other daughter but I don’t know how.
I can’t think straight through the high pitched squeal, it’s driving me insane.
Her dad is at work all day but even he is drained within minutes of being home and is at his wits end too.
Shes ruined our life, our family, my daughters home life and if it wasn’t for my older daughter I’d walk away tomorrow and happily never see her again but I couldn’t leave my eldest. I feel so done, yet I’m also worried that if she continues to hurt her sister I could lose her if I can’t prevent it and I know I would never be able to look at her again if she caused that.

That’s a shame (but completely understandable!), sometimes children might not take on board what parents say but they’ll definitely take the message from other kids.

I was thinking of what a PP said about her spending 4 years friendless and internalising it and I think they might be on to something. My DP has ADHD and Tourette’s and he’s mentioned several times about how lonely he felt growing up due to his inability to maintain friendships. He never bullied anyone, he just never managed to feel included.

Obviously I didn’t know him as a child but my SIL has mentioned even his mum was scared of him. I can’t even picture it as he’s basically a human Labrador, but he must have been challenging.

Just to add, if you are looking at a private assessment, check that whoever you are using carries out the assessment in compliance with NICE guidelines. My understanding is that if it is compliant then it should be accepted by the NHS/LA.

We also went with a clinic where the professionals either still work in the NHS or had a decent history of NHS work for this reason.

Good luck x

SEND teacher here who has worked with many young people with a PDA profile, and I would agree with this. She sounds very like a young man I worked with.

I have 2 boys. My oldest is on the pathway to be diagnosed with ADHD. My youngest behavior is much like you describe. My boys are 4 and 6. Things that have made a HUGE difference to us are:
1- reduce time in childcare. I appreciate I am very privileged to be able to do this but I reduced my hours so I could drop off and pick up my son's so they do 9-15.15 rather than 07.30 to 17.30. This has meant they are masking for less time and are much less over stimulated and tired.
2- allow down time after school, don't over book with clubs.
3- got rid of tablets and limited video games to 1 hr weekend only. Video games make both their behavior immeasurably worse.
4- over hauled diet. Reduce UPF and especially artificial colourings. My oldest appears to be very sensitive to red coloring and goes bananas. Also limiting sugar. I prioritize protein, veg and fruit and healthy carbs where possible. Ensuring their blood sugar is stable massively reduced melt downs. My boys only drink milk and water the vast majority of the time.
5-stable sleep wake time where possible
6-lots of time outside running about or at soft play burning off energy.

I appreciate that not everyone can afford to eat this way or work part time but I just wanted to tell you about what has made a difference to our family.

Also some other things to consider:

• really prioritize connection. I agree with pp about you getting stuck in a negative cycle where she gets attention for bad behavior. I recommend Gabor Mates book Hold on to your kids for advice on this.

-the punching could be a sensory seeking thing? Does her dad rough house with her? Or try getting a trampoline or gum ball she can bounce on? Or a weighted blanket?

Although your DD is displaying more extreme behaviour this does sound like my son when he was 6/7, he couldn't control his anger, would lash out at whoever was in front of him if he was cross. He was so overwhelmed with all areas of his life, he just couldn't cope. We had to change our parenting style so he had few demands placed on him at home, lots of notice of any kind of change (even just going to the park) and lots of choices where we could. We did still have consequences, he knew he couldn't behave badly but we tried so hard not to blow up in the moment and talk about everything when we were all calmer. He is nearly 10 now and although the behaviour is still there we have all learnt triggers and how to manage them and he is a lot better. He has had his first appointment for ASD assessment, just waiting to see the SALT team and then they will diagnose (or not!). I also paid for play therapy and that helped so much, his therapist was amazing and he really benefitted from the sessions. I would also go back to the GP and push for a referral, record her if you have to. Good luck to you OP, it's a hard slog, and be kind to yourself, i think it does change you a bit as a person when you are having to cope with something like this.

My asd one really really wants friends but struggles socially.
We tried sports that let's them be with other people but not demand working as a team
Cycling - road, track, bmx racing
Swimming with a club
Athletics with a club.

I think too many people focus on getting a diagnosis but what you really need is help and a way to move forward. You don't need a diagnosis for this. Some private sessions with a child psychologist can help you understand what's happening and new techniques to help your daughter manage her anger.

I think that's a good shout actually. Find a sport she can enjoy without the pressure of a team (to add to the suggestions above: gymnastics, horse riding, ice skating). It'll help her burn off some energy, give her something to focus positively on and feel proud of achievements, and an opportunity for socialising outside of school.

I'd also consider some martial arts training for her sister. Sounds like she could do with a boost in confidence and learn how to defend herself.

Agree my ASD teen loved tennis which is what I said up thread. Social sport without the team. Many tennis clubs run junior coaching and daily/half day courses in the summer which are a lot of fun.

Another approach OP (although you're probably overwhelmed by all the suggestions you're receiving) is non violent resistance (NVR). Very successful with kids with this type of profile:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Connective-Parenting-guide-connecting-Approach/dp/1546718702

I have found there are so many families out there experiencing the same as you (including my own). My DD (now 14) was very similar to yours, so angry, so ungrateful, mean to siblings, vile to me in particular. In school , an angel (albeit with frequent friendship issues and fallings out). I also felt like you do about her and then felt so ashamed and like a failure. Through my own research and support from facebook groups such as 'parents of autistic girls UK', i have concluded my DD is autistic with a PDA profile. Your DD sounds very much likely to be too. As PP's have said , this knowledge doesn't change the challenges you are facing as a family but it does make it so much easier to understand and feel compassion for your child. Adopting PDA low demand parenting strategies has helped a lot at reducing anger and meltdowns. It is hard to deal with grandparents etc. saying "she's getting away with murder" and the like but even they can see the difference it has made. It is getting easier but hormones/puberty and PDA are a recipe for very difficult times but there is so much 'unofficial' support and advice available that genuinely does help. I just have to keep repeating to myself , she doesn't 'want' to feel and behave this way and she is now much better at taking responsibility for nastiness and expressing remorse. I wish you all the best.

Thank you for this, I've been looking for a good resource for NVR so I have just bought the book.

I would also agree with this.

But if the OP truly means this her daughter won't be immune to the fact she feels this way even if she hasn't said it directly to her....its a pretty concerning thing for a parent to feel about their child and signifies a very broken relationship.
OP i can totally see why you are feeling so worn down and upset by all this, but until you can repair your fractured bond with your little girl I don't think the anger will reduce, as she needs more love and understanding, and less hatred and punishment as hard as i'm sure that feels to give right now.
I think family therapy from CAMHS or similar would be your best bet to help rebuild your family relationships and to move her out of the 'black sheep' position.
I've worked with families very like yours and seen a similar dynamic but it can be turned around with the right support.
Its also easy to fall into the 'good child bad child' dynamic aswell, but this can be incredibly damaging to the troubled child who likely wants nothing more to be good, it causes high levels of resentment between siblings, feelings of intense rejection, low self esteem and insecurity, so that really does need to be worked on or it will be really negative for her.

I’m sorry, but her sister needs to whack her right back.

Did you relate to her having any of the PABS/PANDAS symptoms?

In the heat of the moment, this may seem a good idea, however, it encourages more violence to become a habit. There are better methods for correctioning.