My 8 year old is out of control

[holidaymakers]

I am really struggling to get through the summer holidays, my daughter 8 is hateful and gets such a kick out of annoying her older sister, she hits her for no reason but to make her cry several times a day.

She is so rude to me and her dad and whenever we speak to her she shouts shut up.
If she’s asked to do anything we get a flat no screamed in our face.
I have confiscated things, removed privileges and she’s missed out on things but it doesn’t change the behaviour she just reminds us how much she hates us.

I feel sorry for her sister for what she puts her through, she is so kind and well behaved in contrast.

We have suspected ODD and ADHD for a while the doctor wants evidence from the school and we’re a long way off any diagnosis.

She constantly reminds me I can’t tell her what to do and I can’t make her, she hits me whenever I ask anything of her and she makes a high pitched squeal all day every day which is ear piercing and unbearable to hear.
She demands things instantly for example if she’s suddenly hungry she’ll repeat it while hitting me until she gets something or she’ll constantly kick her sister saying I won’t stop until I get food.
She is so angry, constantly talks through gritted teeth with fists clenched and I’m so jumpy around her because I’m constantly flinching I never know when she will hit.
I know I have to find a way to cope for my other daughter but I don’t know how.
I can’t think straight through the high pitched squeal, it’s driving me insane.
Her dad is at work all day but even he is drained within minutes of being home and is at his wits end too.
Shes ruined our life, our family, my daughters home life and if it wasn’t for my older daughter I’d walk away tomorrow and happily never see her again but I couldn’t leave my eldest. I feel so done, yet I’m also worried that if she continues to hurt her sister I could lose her if I can’t prevent it and I know I would never be able to look at her again if she caused that.

Up and down. He was expelled from school at 14, got into drugs, He went to prison three times. Had a child wasn't allowed to see said child after letting her down too much and taking drugs. So all in all not made great choices. My mum was a teacher (knew the value of education) tried her best and always been there for him throughout his troubles. In fact sometimes her love of him I think enabled him sometimes. Once she finally kicked him out she and my dad have been happier without the constant living on eggshells. My dad stopped speaking to him for awhile after an altercation but they are OK now. They see him about once a week. Still makes poor choices is in and out of work but has had another baby and does seem to have mellowed, he's not been in trouble with the police for a long time. I see how my parents struggled with how to control his behaviour I'm surprised they stayed together as most parents end up splitting. Parents always love thier kids no matter how much shit they bring to thier door. Fault or non fault. I used to ask them why do you still speak to him but now having my own kids I understand a mothers love. I do understand op talking in disdain for her child although it sounds cold to others not who have not experienced it and I know she loves her really and is exasperated most likely. I also know how her other child will be feeling, it is like you are always waiting for the kick off and at his worst he used to threaten to stab himself and they would wrestle him to the ground and we had to hide all the knives. I was scared a lot of the time. I also felt sorry for him at the same time because he would never be invited to parties, no one wanted to hang around with him, hence him hanging out with older kids and getting into bad crowds. It's sad all round really. I pray my son doesn't end up like him.

Only at school drop of she will cling onto my leg until the teacher comes over to encourage her in but then they assure me she’s fine once in.
No OCD that I am aware of. She does like to bounce on the edge of her bed in a trance like state which she says she just likes doing.

I'd leave to clinicians to diagnose rather than self-diagnose tbh.

I have tried many consequences but she isn’t phased by any of them, I take away privileges and she shrugs and carries on.
If I give her a stern talking to, she laughs in my face.

DS was like this though he struggled in school. TA teachers and schools were unhelpful suggesting rewards charts which never worked and caused problems - and that it was a discipline issue despite a well behave older child in the school.

I think we had a better relationship to work from though - while he looked unaffected he did sometimes get upset being told off by me - short sharp telling off clear and to the point - no waffling as he'd forget point being made -so getting between in face and clear we do not hit - then moving on.

I think we did use language that didn't set him off - more netural things happening rather than me telling - and gave lots of adjustment time and head up for changes coming up. He slept really poorly so tried to improve that and did a lot better when he had pleanty of time outside - including just sitting with trees in first garden.

He's a lovely teen and described as such by teachers and other adults he come into contact with. Not diagonsed older sister staretd that herself at uni - adhd some SEN - as schools and GP were dismissive and unhelpful and first port of call was to blame parenting.

I do think ADHD med would/could have helped them - but frankly getting diagosned for eldest was a lot of work - us being unable to afford private - and getting no help from schools and GP we put our efforts else where into supporting them as best we could.

The only thing I can add here is that you MUST prioritise your other child.

My sister is ND and when we were younger, our family life was utterly utterly taken over by her needs. As an adult I struggled with doing anything for me, self care and even knowing what I want or what I like. After lots of therapy I am getting better but the struggle has been hard!

Take your other child out for a special day just the two of you this weekend. Park, cinema, zoo - whatever’s in your budget. Speak to your other child quietly and calmly about what’s going on at home and critically listen properly and quietly in an age appropriate way to what they have to say for as long as they want to talk. Don’t dismiss what they have to say, try not to fix or judge. Just listen. Help them work out how they feel about things. Acknowledge that things are hard. Tell them you love them.

It is so so important it really is. Regular alone time with you or your partner where they’re listened to and helped to work through how they feel is critical for their future. Do not allow the difficult child to completely take over their childhood.

I'm afraid this seems to be so common. Don't know how to be bored, don't know how to entertain self.

This.
You don't get full cohorts of year 3 or 4 children who make their families' lives hell by their bad behaviour. Who routinely make their older siblings cry and make their mother wish she could just walk away.
This sounds like a child who is very hard to like.

We went to the Lorna Wing centre in Bromley. At the time, they were one of the few places willing to diagnose at age 3. There has been no problem with recognition of the diagnostic letter for any NHS or LA purpose, except for one useless NHS pediatrician who rolled her eyes and said (with heavy sarcasm) "Far be it from me to argue with the Lorna Wing centre!" I gave her a deadpan stare and said "well, exactly" and that was that.

I think the era of private diagnoses not being "good enough" has passed now that the NHS seems utterly incapable of keeping up with the number of ND children seeking support.

I really feel for you, OP. I have a close relative who has a child just like this and she is almost impossible to parent. No advice but just reassurance that there ARE children like this, it ISN'T always "bad parenting" and your feelings are valid and understandable.

Congratulations. That's the first and likely only sensible comment you'll be making today. I'm surprised at your bare faced bravado even coming back to this thread. You are a disgrace.

Please arrange for some therapy, not just for your DD but the entire family.

How much meaningful one to one time do you have with each of them? Could you try to organise some time together to see if this helps?

Is she stressed about going back to school soon?

Good luck OP this sounds very tough.

My DD9 sounds quite similar. She'd cling on to the class door and it usually takes three teachers to get her into the class.

I take a share of responsibility for her behaviour, losing my temper and being too soft at times, but blame my dad a lot as he regularly undermines me.

Maybe try keep her away from her sister at the moment?

Good luck. Hope to keep updated how you get on.

I think she sounds PDA profile and low demand parenting to try and settle her nervous system would be the route to take. I alao think it's possible she has PANS/PANDAs as well. There is a good Facebook support group you could look at to see if anything is relatable. Good luck. O know how hard it is but can get so much better

I could not deal with her in a .million years. You have to get her into social care. I'm sorry many will hate me for this but your lives and that of your other daughter are being ruined.

Ive DM’d you OP

I had to google pans/pandas and it says streptococcal infections.
She was very sick with Strep B (GBS) at birth and was in hospital on antibiotics for a week.

If you can I would get her some help privately, I think it cost us approximately £2000 from start to finish but it was so helpful

It really doesn’t work that way. They won’t just take her into care. It’s awful, and yes, damaging to her other DD. My DD2 has been damaged by my DD1’s rages over the years.

What the OP can do is ask for help from Social Care, school and her GP. And keep asking. You have to fight for it.

Sadly you can't just put a badly behaved child up for adoption like you can a pet. Otherwise I am sure that many in OP's situation might have considered it.

I'm so sorry, it must be horrible for the family to be terrorised by your own child. I think you should reach out to your DH and mom/family to help you out here. Send her away for a weekend to give the rest of you some respite.
I have a DS10 who was hyperactive as a baby (constant crying and wriggling) and toddler. He never stopped talking or running. I spent 5 years of my life either soothing him to sleep or just running after him to tire him out. It was truly exhausting. Fortunately he has calmed down over the years and now he is more or less an average boy. We have never had problems at school though - actually he is very academic and loves learning new things, esp. maths.
How about putting her in some extracurricular where she can burn some energy? If you can afford it, I'd just put her somewhere everyday.
About hitting - I m not a specialist - but I think it's generally accepted that a child who is 8 y.o. knows right from wrong in a moral sense, so she knows she is acting badly. Even my 5 y.o. knows when he is lying when he does it and that it's bad.
Good luck and all the best.

I've been where you are OP and I would look at Autism/PDA and ADHD and tourettes. You can try the low demand parenting becase youve got nothing to loose.
Ignore the people here who are banging on about harsh consequences etc.
Good luck.

Interesting. I would access private paediatrician or immunologist if that's possible as NHS are useless with this condition. Dr Tim Ubhi is a good starting point. Best of luck I hope you get some answers and treatment can be as simple as antibiotics although the condition is waxing and wanting in nature. There is light at the end of the tunnel. I promise.

Do either of you have BUPA family cover, if so you would be able to claim for ADHD on that. At the very least I would be looking for a child psychologist/ therapy as it’s hard to see how this situation won’t get worse.

The Group B strep at birth could easily be significant, OP. There's pretty good evidence that newborn babies who have this severely are more likely to have long term neurodevelopmental and educational difficulties.

However that's not the same as PANS/PANDAs which is a marked regression and onset of OCD type symptoms following infection in older children who had previously developed typically. This child has always struggled from what this parent says.

Every thread on Mumsnet where there are behaviour issues bandies about PDA and PANS/PANDAS....

She could absolutely have had PANDAS since birth since the strep infection. The recent tics and exacerbation are likely because she is having a major flare due to a virus or stress (if it is PANDAS). The OCD symptoms could be issues with food or intrusive thoughts? Lots of wiping after the toilet. It doesn't have to be severe OCD.