My 8 year old is out of control

[holidaymakers]

I am really struggling to get through the summer holidays, my daughter 8 is hateful and gets such a kick out of annoying her older sister, she hits her for no reason but to make her cry several times a day.

She is so rude to me and her dad and whenever we speak to her she shouts shut up.
If she’s asked to do anything we get a flat no screamed in our face.
I have confiscated things, removed privileges and she’s missed out on things but it doesn’t change the behaviour she just reminds us how much she hates us.

I feel sorry for her sister for what she puts her through, she is so kind and well behaved in contrast.

We have suspected ODD and ADHD for a while the doctor wants evidence from the school and we’re a long way off any diagnosis.

She constantly reminds me I can’t tell her what to do and I can’t make her, she hits me whenever I ask anything of her and she makes a high pitched squeal all day every day which is ear piercing and unbearable to hear.
She demands things instantly for example if she’s suddenly hungry she’ll repeat it while hitting me until she gets something or she’ll constantly kick her sister saying I won’t stop until I get food.
She is so angry, constantly talks through gritted teeth with fists clenched and I’m so jumpy around her because I’m constantly flinching I never know when she will hit.
I know I have to find a way to cope for my other daughter but I don’t know how.
I can’t think straight through the high pitched squeal, it’s driving me insane.
Her dad is at work all day but even he is drained within minutes of being home and is at his wits end too.
Shes ruined our life, our family, my daughters home life and if it wasn’t for my older daughter I’d walk away tomorrow and happily never see her again but I couldn’t leave my eldest. I feel so done, yet I’m also worried that if she continues to hurt her sister I could lose her if I can’t prevent it and I know I would never be able to look at her again if she caused that.

Maybe being taken out and treated isn't what she needs to be happy?

It sounds like she is lashing out at not having some needs met. It's a matter of figuring out what those are and what you can do to make life more manageable for her. Are you in a position to afford private help?

You say the GP needs further evidence, it's this just to refer to pathway for a diagnosis? I would really start pushing that out needs to be moved along faster, if ADHD/ASD is diagnosed hunger ax separate service in your area she also needs access referral to CAMHs (who can in turn provide evidence) or a faster referral to CAMHs now who can unpick themselves if it is neuro diversity behind all of this.

Agree that the diagnosis itself didn't make any difference at all! It took about 2 years from referral to diagnosis but this was 5 years ago and the waiting lists are much longer now.
TAF and social services support were useless as none of the social workers had any understanding of how to support neurodivergent children, but support from CAMHS workers has been brilliant for us (I know this isn't always the case). Our son is also medicated which helps reduce the aggression, but honestly I think the main thing that has helped has been changing our mindset to see him as a child who isn't coping rather than a child who's angry and aggressive. Occupational therapy really helped, we paid for a private assessment which helped us understand his sensory needs. We got him a swing for his bedroom so he can take himself off to calm down when he needs to.
And also just age, he's grown up and been able to understand himself a bit better and calm himself down .

I would treat her as if she is ND and find resources that would help with that. Some suggestions above would be helpful for you.

Diagnosis doesn’t change much, other than meds which can be tricky, you have to seek out the support yourself. There is no magical package of help and support once diagnosed, I really wish there was!

I second contact your local children’s services for support, they will be able to signpost to other agencies that can help.

It sounds so tough for everyone, I really sympathise x

So sorry you’re going through this. It’s truly so difficult.

She will be able to mask at school, but then explode at home. She does this because she feels safe to act like this - not that that helps you in anyway.

Speak to family services, even involve social services. They have a duty of care to help (even though they won’t admit that), plus your eldest is at risk of harm from your 8yr old.

A diagnosis may mean medication, but even that’s not a silver bullet and will only help marginally. If you can afford it, maybe think about funding a child psychologist yourself.

Have you tried some quite structured days with her to see whether her behaviour is better? Sit her down at breakfast and show her visually what the day is going to look like. If she copes better at school maybe she's not sure how to handle her emotions when that routine is changed. Could you set up a padded corner in her room where she can be encourage to go and punch some cushions or something if she's starting to get frustrated?

Possibly something like a worry journal or encouraging her to talk about her feelings at the end of the day, what she has enjoyed doing, what she thinks she could improve on in terms of her behaviour etc. Maybe give her something to work towards like an activity where she can burn off energy trampolining or something. If she does one helpful thing a day she gains a point, if she's mean to her sister she loses a point etc.

It does sound like she'd benefit from some professional input. Sorry things are so awful for you all right now.

But those things are not dealing with the root of her unhappiness, whatever it is.

I think OP was simply trying to point out that she’s treated like any other child and there is no obvious reason for the behaviour. No need to be snarky.

She is an eight year old trying to explain her feelings in an eight year old way. She doesn’t have the emotional maturity or language to explain what is causing her distress, only the way that she copes with it, by bottling it up until it becomes impossible for her eight year old self to deal with it.

The screaming shut up and a few other things you've mentioned really made me think of PDA.

There's a Facebook page I've found really helpful to understand my son's behaviour and why.
Also try At peace parenting on Instagram.

OP
Get video evidence of her hitting out, screaming for a long time and show them to the GP. They'll have no choice but to believe you (whether they'll do anything about it is another thing).

i know others have said it but, being well-behaved in school, does not translate to being well-behaved at home. Also “she can behave at school so it shows she can control it” is also a myth.

You need to push push push for the CAMHS referral.

I suggest you post on the SN boards, you’ll get advice from people who have been there.

I had a terrible time with DD, she was violent & destructive (at home never at school), and we went through some terrible times. I found CAMHS helpful once we were in (medication being the main help). I also accessed various support groups, who were great. I now have a lovely 19 year old, that I get on brilliantly with.

The things I would have done differently? Treat “as if”, allow her to take ownership of decisions that effect her, not try to reason with her when she was mentally overwhelmed.

I was also going to ask whether you’ve looked at anything around PDA - whether she has it or would meet a diagnostic threshold is another matter but some of the techniques may be helpful if she doesn’t like being told no or being told what to do. Some of her behaviour reminds me of my DC a couple of years ago, who has diagnosed ASD and strongly suspected ADHD (but not enough evidence from school so no formal diagnosis, I hear you on this). He has a lot of PDA style traits. I’ve found giving him the illusion of control in some situations can be helpful, eg “it’s up to you but if you do B, X might happen” (when I want him to do A).

Yvonne Newbold does some very helpful and empathetic webinars around children who are physically violent. Her view, loosely summarised, is that the behaviour is linked to high levels of anxiety and being emotionally dysregulated. We have found our DC is calmer now we’ve got a better understanding of his needs (and also he’s a bit older).

I really empathise with you, people who haven’t lived this underestimate the effect it has on family life and on your own self esteem as a parent when your child doesn’t seem to respond to any known form of discipline (I just used to want to scream when my DM told me I mustn’t allow him to hit me….)

I have been a lurker for a while, but reading this resonates with me. I would echo what another poster has said about PDA. Its very much about the child's need to remain in control- this is anxiety driven.

It’s really difficult. PPs saying household stress will make it worse are right but it’s the middle of the summer holidays and OP is dealing with this everyday without a break so of course the stress levels are going to be high. The exhaustion and constant noise means your brain struggles to think logically as really all it wants to do is get you away from the situation. So I would recommend getting some childcare booked asap and then you can have a breather and tackle it logically.
At the moment the op is going to struggle to put strategies in place as demands are constantly being made.

By the way, behaving at school and exploding outside is super common and known by a number of terms including the Coke Bottle Effect (imagine shaking a can of Coke all day and then pulling the tab…). It is a sign of unmet needs at school, ie she is masking and this is taking a toll. We had this with our DC, big style in Years 1 and 2.

We found our school only took us seriously when we presented them with a formal diagnosis and started suggesting things to them. Until then, they were happy to ignore as it wasn’t causing a problem. We were lucky enough to be able to go private for an assessment.

Have you looked at the Right to Choose pathway? You have to be careful with ADHD in terms of the meds but it would be worth asking your GP as the wait shouldn’t be so long.

Second the suggestion re PDA and At Peace Parenting. Casey Erlich. Look up her website, podcasts too, as well as Instagram. Her approach is to put on a PDA lens - see the behaviour as a nervous system response, and adjust your mindset, expectations and responses accordingly.

We are experiencing a lot of what you describe and we still haven't got on top of it but I feel that we understand a lot more of what is going on.

It's awful for you, DH and older sibling but it's also awful for your DD8. And she will pick up on your vibe (frustrated, anxious, angry, fed up, whatever it is you are understandably feeling). Imagine picking up that everyone you live with feels negatively towards you. Compassion is your friend - dig deep, find as much compassion as you can, and try to treat her behaviour as her not coping. It's so hard, and I am not getting right all or even most of the time. But it may help with the building resentment or helplessness that you are feeling.

She needs your safe nervous system to help her nervous system feels safe. Try to explain to the sibling that you are going to be trying to help DD8 and that some things might seem or feel unfair to sibling (e.g. dropping punishment/consequences). But that the aim is to improve life for you all. If you can get some time with older sibling out the house so you can spend a bit more time just you and DD8, then at least you don't have to be in protection mode or peace keeping mode. Be as flexible as possible in doing what DD8 wants (e.g. playing whatever game she wants, watching whatever TV show she likes, with her) to build connection.

Casey Erlich has loads of free resources and even if you don't have a diagnosis (we have ADHD diagnosis but not PDA) or aren't sure, showing more compassion and changing your mindset will help you whatever DD8's challenges are.

I wish you luck, it's so hard xx

I don’t think that’s what OP is saying. I read this as “we know she is unhappy. We are trying, but we are lost and we don’t know how to make her happy. Please help!”

I think your interpretation is pretty unhelpful actually.

I have no experience with ND children but reading your thread makes ne feel sad for you and your daughter.

I'm wondering if you can find an outlet for her frustrations after school? I mean, if she's just spend 6+ hours keeping it all in and being lovely, there is no wonder that she's ready to explode. My go to answer is usually exercise of some sort, but I'm not sure if this is helpful.

Hopefully you get a diagnosis soon and you can find groups of parents that are in a similar situation for help and support.

Best parenting course I did was called 'the incredible years'
There's an accompanying book by Carolyn Webster-Stratton.
Barnardoes ran the course I think, so might be worth contacting them to see if they can offer support.

odd question but have you tried talking to her to see if there is something on toward going on sounds like she is trying to tell you something but doesn't have the words or the confidence to speak up

The value of quality time with children is a myth invented to make time poor parents feel better (and to get them to spend cash).

Kids actually just want time hanging out with their parents who are giving them their attention and interest. You don't need to be doing anything in particular. Children need quantity of time more than 'quality' time.

OP needs specialist help. Her local council may have a family support service who can allocate a worker for her family. She may benefit from looking into support for families with ADHD / autistic children re parenting strategies - I think there is a facebook group called Newbold Hope?

There are some useful and insightful posts on here... then there are some spiteful ones like yours.

Why not give some useful advice instead of being nasty?

This is PDA autism until proven otherwise. There is little in your post that makes me think either ADHD or ODD to be honest. Being ‘fine’ at school all day and exploding at home is textbook, as is equalising behaviour towards her sister. What was she like as a baby, toddler and small child?

I second a PP. Please check out At Peace Parents on social media. Best for strategies that still involve boundaries but in a collaborative, low demand way.

I would seek private assessment if you can. Schools only take autism in girls with no learning difficulties seriously if there is a diagnosis made. I bet there are subtle signs in school, but it’s lost in a class of 30.

I agree with this.