My 8 year old is out of control

[holidaymakers]

I am really struggling to get through the summer holidays, my daughter 8 is hateful and gets such a kick out of annoying her older sister, she hits her for no reason but to make her cry several times a day.

She is so rude to me and her dad and whenever we speak to her she shouts shut up.
If she’s asked to do anything we get a flat no screamed in our face.
I have confiscated things, removed privileges and she’s missed out on things but it doesn’t change the behaviour she just reminds us how much she hates us.

I feel sorry for her sister for what she puts her through, she is so kind and well behaved in contrast.

We have suspected ODD and ADHD for a while the doctor wants evidence from the school and we’re a long way off any diagnosis.

She constantly reminds me I can’t tell her what to do and I can’t make her, she hits me whenever I ask anything of her and she makes a high pitched squeal all day every day which is ear piercing and unbearable to hear.
She demands things instantly for example if she’s suddenly hungry she’ll repeat it while hitting me until she gets something or she’ll constantly kick her sister saying I won’t stop until I get food.
She is so angry, constantly talks through gritted teeth with fists clenched and I’m so jumpy around her because I’m constantly flinching I never know when she will hit.
I know I have to find a way to cope for my other daughter but I don’t know how.
I can’t think straight through the high pitched squeal, it’s driving me insane.
Her dad is at work all day but even he is drained within minutes of being home and is at his wits end too.
Shes ruined our life, our family, my daughters home life and if it wasn’t for my older daughter I’d walk away tomorrow and happily never see her again but I couldn’t leave my eldest. I feel so done, yet I’m also worried that if she continues to hurt her sister I could lose her if I can’t prevent it and I know I would never be able to look at her again if she caused that.

I will say, mum refused to recognise that she had a different attachment to this child though, which is what stalled a lot of the work.

I’d be putting her in a holiday club to give my
other child a break

I have been here. DS2 age 7 is similar and DS1 now age 16 was similar when he was younger. They are both diagnosed ADHD. So am I - usually at least one parent also has it, any indication whether that might be the case in your family?

I am a bit short on time but will come back. I learnt a lot since having DS1, but even though I did many many many things wrong with DS1, he really did just grow out of a lot of the worst behaviours. DS2 has a more obviously challenging profile and doesn't mask at school, so that plus the family history means that he got a diagnosis much sooner.

I would say with the GP, can you ask for a second opinion or look whether there is a self referral option to CAMHS. Since the GP is not the one doing the assessment, I don't see why they need to have the school evidence, especially since it's the middle of the summer holidays (if you're in England) so presumably, it will take a while for her new teacher to get to know her. You can also look into charities which may support such as ADHD UK.

Have a look at Supernanny show (find in youtube) she had a child exactly like this. I have SEN background and not every child/behaviour needs a label.... the episode is really helpful.

Sadly not many clubs will accept such a badly behaved child, as she will upset the other children and make the adults' lives hell, as she is doing at home.
So sorry OP. What a horrible situation for you and your lovely first daughter.

I have tried many consequences but she isn’t phased by any of them, I take away privileges and she shrugs and carries on.
If I give her a stern talking to, she laughs in my face.

My daughter gives the natural consequences of no longer playing together and then if she can’t play she’ll just annoy her instead.
I separate the girls as much as possible but we do live together.
If I knew of a consequence that would work I’d be using it but nothing does.
It breaks my heart to see her hurt her sister and I focus on her when it happens, meanwhile she lies and screams that she didn’t do it.

I’m adding my voice to PDA. I advise joining the fb group another poster signposted as you’ll get lots of support and advice there.
You could also look into play therapy- it could help your daughter process any underlying issues. Play therapy had a dramatic effect on my child after about 3 months.
Ignore the nasty poster- they have no idea.

This sounds very tough and it's very important that you have space to talk about it freely and honestly so people jumping on you for not doing or explaining everything perfectly is not on. It sounds like you're at a total loss and the cumulative effect is damaging family relationships.

I don't have any advice as I'm not in the situation but please do remember to tell her you love her.

OP some tips from me on this from life with DD16. I know this is hard but you need to acknowledge her “I understand you are angry/upset but…” also more hugs (I know they often won’t unless they initiate) but try…ask for one. Sports/drama clubs, Tennis coaching in the holidays DD loved and it’s a bit of respite for a few hours, not too noisy either being outside and a new skill brings the confidence. The indoor spaces with loads of kids used to really
trigger my DD.

Brace yourself for puberty, I found DD16 really struggled to adjust to the changes in her body and the demands periods bring. Period pants like modibodi were and still are a godsend.

I would tread carefully and hold back on the criticism. She is obviously very upset about something or struggling with something. I would observe and listen for awhile. There may be a problem you aren't yet aware of

If a healthy well nourished child was hitting me demanding food & screaming I'd give them them nothing until they stopped. If they screamed again I'd wait another hour.

Children who don't do well with being told no, its often because they've had what they want/been placated quite a lot. Even years earlier as a younger child. And it then takes months or even years of consistently imposing consequences etc to undo the bad habits.

I actually agree with you but OP has a violent, demanding daughter. If she (possibly) finds it easier to take her out to get through the day who can blame her?
I'm not saying it's the right or wrong thing to do but I was responding to another poster who had decided it was 'telling' that OP took her daughter out rather than.......do what?
OP sounds worn out with it all and doesn't need a snipey poster telling her that taking her child out is the root cause of all her problems.

I have adhd kids. We have firm boundries and set rules and set consequences (though appreciate this may not work with pda) - actually written on a board in the kitchen, agreed when everyone was calmish.
Even if consequences mean nothing to her keep doing them. Firm and consistent, even though it's draining and you want to scream.
I disengage at times as showing my attention when they are badly behaved causes even more bad behaviour. So high screaming - I say when you have stopped come and get me and we can do x,y,z put on noise cancelling headphones and carry on with household tasks. Not ideal with neighbours but has seemed to curb it

Why are you rewarding such terrible behaviour?

I was a horrendous 8 year old, my mum and I had awful run ins. Towards the end of secondary school I was diagnosed with a manageable health issue. Mightnt be the same in your case but no harm taking a step back to try get a sense of the whole picture

When she hits you or sibling have you tried just turning and silently walking out the room?

It takes quite a bit of practise esp if they follow you. Iv gone into the garden, then walked back in. Kept of moving and ignored completely.

Lock on older dc room to keep her out if she is prone to trashing things.

she’ll constantly kick her sister saying I won’t stop until I get food.

Honestly, im not kidding, you need to look for courses to learn how to safely restrain her before she seriously hurts her sister. You seem powerless to stop her - you need to physically stop her. She is 8. Can you create a safe,comfortable place with a door you can lock her to allow her to calm down if its got to where she is so determined to hurt another child?

She has to learn she will be stopped from hurting others

‘if it wasn’t for my older daughter I’d walk away tomorrow and happily never see her again’

No child will flourish or be normal if their mother has these sentiments about them.

How much older is the sister?

Obviously it’s different with parents as hitting is never the solution to anything but my older brother would have slapped the squealing/hitting/whatever right out of me (or vice versa, we’re 2 years apart). She may have something going on with her, but sometimes kids are very effective in correcting other kids’ annoying behaviour.

And that helps the OP in what way?

You need to protect your other child. So much sympathy for the violent child on here, barely a mention of her poor sister?
OP physically pick her up and shut her in her bedroom when she’s like this. You cannot allow her to attack her siblings. “Natural consequences” of her sister not wanting to play are not enough!! Your poor girl!
You have my sympathy as this sounds a horrible situation but I do feel like you’re not being firm enough. A stern talking to a natural consequences just aren’t enough and won’t protect your other child. I hope you get a diagnosis and some more support soon.

So, in your expert opinion, what should the OP be doing. What's your solution?

Come on-the OP is at her wits end. She’s saying this on an anonymous forum, not to her daughter. Give her a break.

I assume it's undiagnosed autism and she's breaking under the pressure of school? My DD was exactly the same. No one listened to me until she was a teen and started missing school.
I was never able to video a meltdown (seriously, do people that suggest this not realise it would just lead to a smashed phone) but I have taken photos of damage and emailed them to myself so I had evidence. She seems to be coming out the other side now she's finished secondary school. It's very very hard, you have my sympathies.
Removing privileges and treats failed. It just made her hate herself more and be even angrier. I did eventually get DLA money which helped as I didn't get phased by breakages and we turned a corner. I could replace items quickly and never ever mention it was an issue.