For thinking the details of my holiday are none of work's business

[Truffleshuffle84]

I work for a medium size company in he UK

Staff handbook says all leave must be agreed by your line manager and will be approved on the basis of business need and general staff numbers/ work coverage etc - all fine, been here for 8 years, never an issue. I'm in a team of 5 and collectively with our line manager we manage to get holidays to suit everyone etc.

Line manager left in June and we've got a new one from a different department, no issues, we all get on well.

But, I've asked for a week off in the autumn for the school holidays. LM replied asking when I was away and where was I going, I thought it was just a casual passing interest type question, replied with details of our plans.

They've now rejected my leave request because they don't think I'll be fit for work Monday returning from Tenerife on a Sunday on a flight that lands at 10.30pm (at an airport 20 mins from home).

I've not replied yet but AIBU for thinking it's up to me how I spend my annual leave and it's up to me to decide whether something is achievable whilst being ready for work the next day?

We got stuck in Ireland for an extra week due to the ash cloud thing. There were no flights and all the ferries were full. DH work were "enjoy your extra holiday and don't worry about it" (I don't think they even took it from his Annual Leave) and the Nursery were "it's a great cultural learning experience". That's the sort of responses you want. I guess LM has had people turning up not having slept and heavily hung over. I used to go on trips from Friday to Sunday when it was a thing and people on those trips would just come back on the flight home having spent the entire time drinking and staying out all night.

👏 brilliant!

She doesn't sound bright at all.
Since when does a manager get to punish a new team because of a previous team?

Are you in a union?
If not, join one.
If you are, go to your rep with this.

I'd reply saying it's unfair for her to assume your behaviour based on historical issues she may have had with other teams and that you will be raising this issue with her line manager. I'd be angry about this, it's vindictive and shows quite clearly that she hasn't bothered to get to know any of her new team. She sounds like a bully.

Tbh I actually think that's a fair response on principle, she's just saying she won't tolerate people taking the piss ... and let's face it, lots of people take the piss. The only thing is she should've had the conversation with you first, given you the benefit of the doubt and let your track record speak for itself and the lack of doing this can probably be down to the lack of experience. Enjoy your holiday!! 🌞🍹

I am not suprised she has issues with an attitude like that.

Unless your employer has very poor HR recruitment she will get back what she gives out.

Anyway happy holiday booking...😉

I'm pleased that you got your leave approved OP but I would also be annoyed by the LM response.
I get that the LM has had previous issues but they shouldn't be taking this out on you.
In your shoes I would be quietly looking for another job elsewhere.

Glad you're able to go Op , I think it's the word 'tolerate' that makes the LM reply harsh . She could have got her message across without sounding so arsey.

She is a fool.

Annual leave is a legal obligation which she as LM has a duty to enforce.

She is managing a team and if she wants to highlight an issue /problem she organises a team email or team meeting.

She should not target a single employee and refuse AL when the team and individual employee have a good work history.

She has upset the OP and I will bet the rest of her team will not be too impressed either.

So she burned goodwill and as a manager had to backdown on the AL decision because it was never going to be within the HR policy.

Sorry, I’d be taking the whole interaction to HR.

if after that you want to be a dick towards me then cool because then I know why and I will pick up my carcass and leave, but what I can’t allow is anybody thinking they can dictate to me anyhow and talk to me anyhow and put their previous issues on me. As pointed out she should have politely said this in the first place and approved it but moreover she shouldn’t be asking people why they want annual leave then using that information against them!

I would also make me feel very uncomfortable moving forward ( well
pissed really) asking for time off be it AL or otherwise if this is her attitude because you know the lecture will be coming 🙄

The thing is though, LM could take the piss now she's laid down the papertrail. Watch OP like a hawk on her return, nitpick her work as 'falling short because you're tired like I said you would be', all to justify her original overreach. She can't let this lie really without looking inept, so she has to somehow 'prove she was right to be concerned' later...

Do you have to put out of office messages on your email in your absence?

If so, might I suggest that you make it clear you won't have access to email until the date of your return as she sounds the sort to add a 9am meeting to your calendar on the day you are back and then claim you weren't properly prepared owing to your being tired.

And screenshot your calendar before you go to prove there wasnl't anything in place when you finished for leave.

I had a colleague stuck in Thailand during the ash cloud thing. My somewhat eccentric boss at the time tolerated it at first (civil service and some type of organisational line was issued about being stuck abroad being special paid leave IIRC) but started to get antsy as other people trickled back from less exotic places. Eventually she sent him a full overland itinerary for him to get back to the UK, involving I think the Trans-Siberian Express as she felt he wasn't making the effort.

He ignored her obviously.

@Truffleshuffle84 well done for your message. I totally get how annoying the whole thing has been but other than saving the exchange in case you need it for anything ongoing, I'd leave it for now (and join a union if not already and you're in a unionised company). I might also separately ask HR if there's a company policy for what happens if you miss working time owing to factors out of your control, just so you know what it is just in case the worst happens.

I’d just reply:
Thank you.

Nothing more, nothing less.

This is good advice.

I might also be tempted to reply to today's email to suggest that interacting in this manner with a new team, simply because of poor behaviours in a previous team, was unreasonable.

Exactly this. The LM appears to have very poor people management skills.
Her "I've approved it on the system, if you are satisfied then that's your responsibility to manage" is particularly fatuous since it was always OP's responsibility to manage, so the LM's just stated the bleedin' obvious! 🙄
@Truffleshuffle84 I wouldn't go to HR with this as you've got your AL approved and you've shown the LM that you're a responsible adult who won't be pushed around. However, you've got this exchange in writing so if anything else happens with her in the future, you can then go to HR and complain along the lines of "I'm starting to see a pattern in LM's behaviour ..." and have the evidence to back up your grievance. So forget about it for now snd have a fabulous holiday! 😎🍸

I think that managers response is incredibly condescending!

I can only imagine how incredibly, annoyingly bright and breezy you’re going to be on your first day back. Even if I felt like death I’d be so bouncy on that Monday she’d wish she’d never said a word.

Absolutely spot on.

I've just replied saying thanks.

I'll leave it for now, happy to have leave approved

One of my colleagues knows someone in passing in the dept she came from, apparently she's got history of being a petty micromanager. Weird as I've not seen it up until now, wonder if she was trying to mask her behaviours in the beginning since moving to our team but now the veil is slipping

If there's more crap in the future I'll not hesitate to go to HR with this interaction any anything she pulls later.

Thanks to everyone for your replies.

Absolutely agree- you need this recorded and if you have a union id be seeking their advice also. A totally unacceptable response from your LM.

Fingers crossed you don't get so delayed that you don't make it into work on the Monday! 😁

If I remember, I'll come back and tell you all if she was all nitpicking on my first day back 😁

Truffle, that's your third toilet visit this morning.... Are you napping in the loo?

Truffle, I noticed you took an extra 40 seconds in the kitchen, getting an extra shot of coffee for the fatigue?

Truffle, you've sent me the old version of that file, perhaps your eyes are a bit tired and didn't notice the file name?

I jest but I'm wondering if this might be something close to the truth! 🤔

As others have sort of alluded to, since the flight is due back at 10.30 Sunday night she may have concerns about the flight being delayed, there isn't much wriggle room for that and if she has other people off it could impact.
That said, she should have said that rather than imply you might not be fit for work

Your manager seems to have confused managing a team of adults with teaching a class of children. “Won’t tolerate”?! Bloody hell.

I agree.

I think that line managers who move from dept to dept are often 'transferred' because they haven't people management skills and in my experience are very often micro managers who are totally unsuited to their roles. I've known a few who have 'transferred' before ending up working on 'projects' because they caused so many problems when dealing with people.

Watch your back OP. She might let it rest for now but she won't forget. She's just getting started 'making her mark' on the department.