For thinking the details of my holiday are none of work's business

[Truffleshuffle84]

I work for a medium size company in he UK

Staff handbook says all leave must be agreed by your line manager and will be approved on the basis of business need and general staff numbers/ work coverage etc - all fine, been here for 8 years, never an issue. I'm in a team of 5 and collectively with our line manager we manage to get holidays to suit everyone etc.

Line manager left in June and we've got a new one from a different department, no issues, we all get on well.

But, I've asked for a week off in the autumn for the school holidays. LM replied asking when I was away and where was I going, I thought it was just a casual passing interest type question, replied with details of our plans.

They've now rejected my leave request because they don't think I'll be fit for work Monday returning from Tenerife on a Sunday on a flight that lands at 10.30pm (at an airport 20 mins from home).

I've not replied yet but AIBU for thinking it's up to me how I spend my annual leave and it's up to me to decide whether something is achievable whilst being ready for work the next day?

Having done some further research into this, I'm almost 100% certain this wouldn't constitute a reasonable business objective. That's for several reasons.

Firstly, they cannot dictate your bedtime or sleep routine. They cannot know how much sleep you need to function, whether you slept on the plane, what time you woke up or your usual sleeping pattern. They are not qualified to make that assessment.

Secondly, they cannot dictate what activities you do on annual leave.

It may be an acceptable point if your job requires a good night's sleep to be legal and safe (like a surgeon or an HGV driver)? Would you falling asleep at work risk someone's life?

I have in the past told someone that turned up late with the explanation they'd arrived at work direct from the airport then fell asleep at their desk that they had to go home and either make the time up or take it as annual leave - but assuming no mega delays I can't see why this would impinge on your work.

@Truffleshuffle84 whether what HR/management have said and done is reasonable might depend what your company does and what your job is.

There are some safety related roles where a late return from hols into an early start might raise eyebrows.

Be careful with this OP. I know this type of 'schoolteacher-y' managers and they can really hold a grudge if you go against them, even if you're well within your rights. I think your LM is completely unreasonable but you have to be cautious how you handle it. Perhaps you could reply to their response and say something like: 'Thanks for your response. I completely understand your concerns regarding staffing on the Monday. The flights we are looking to book are unfortunately the only ones within our budget and changing them would jeopardise the entire holiday. I can however guarantee that I will be punctual and up to the job upon my return. I hope you can reconsider.' But then, you will really have to keep that promise and woe betide if your flight gets cancelled... I had a very similar situation much earlier in my career and I 'won' the right to get my holiday approved against the wishes of my LM at the time. She was not happy, so much so it actually hurt my career in the short term. I found out that when she moved to another company and a year or so later I applied for a position there, she deemed me 'hard to manage'. I didn't get the job. All because of that one incident. That was the only clash we ever had. So, sadly, with those types, you have to tread carefully.

"in accordance with the company policy there's a business need for you to be at work on the Monday and I don't believe you will be at full fitness to work after landing at 2230. Bearing in mind that assuming the flight isn't delayed, you'll likely be home much later than this, as such I unfortunately need to reject this leave request.
Additionally I've reviewed the leave requests for the following week and we'll have 2 people from the team off for that week so you can't extend your leave to cover the Monday after your planned return.
Please reconsider your travel plans and resubmit, I'm happy to approve this week off with different return times."

Your LM is in no position to determine if you will be fit for work or not thats occupational health or a doctors function.

You have a right to a private life and your job has no right to dictate how you spend your non-work time and the LM is engaged in excessive data collection.

So I would be running that by HR and how that data is processed under the Holiday Leave Policy.

This is absolutely insane. I’ve never heard anything so ridiculous. I’m on your side OP

I don’t know why you shared so much detail in the first place.

Surely “we’re off to Greece, can’t wait” is all that’s needed.

That's shocking overreach! Unless you're an air traffic controller or ER doctor or brain surgeon, this is massively overstepping. I would give her a chance to retract her overreach before you go to HR.

Is there a history of you being unavoidably late back from holidays....?

I’ve never heard such nonsense. What next, a memo to all staff telling them they must be in bed and lights out by 10pm latest on work nights!

Utterly ridiculous. I think I would advise him to contact HR, to confirm the fact he has no legal right to refuse your annual leave request for this reason.

Yeah, no partying on a school night, don't you know?

It’s not for her to assess your fitness to work following a late flight, there’s always the chance of delay but then, being an adult, you sick it up and push through. Would she have stopped a new mother from nursing because night feeds interrupt her sleep?

This is one of the most bonkers work/HR things I’ve ever heard. I would not be able to accept this ridiculousness.

OP will be home before midnight and plenty of people go to bed later than that - no me. Also she has kids so if they’re anything like mine then on any given day she maybe tired from being up with them during the night.

In my younger years I would go clubbing, be home at 3am and at my desk at 9am.

That kind of manager would never hire a new mum, for sure. It's the old-school, paternalistic management style. Bonkers. If you want adult level performance, treat your staff like adults.

Even if you were/are putting yourself through the stress, self-flagellation and condoning the bully CEO Mr O'Leary by flying with Ryanair, I still think your leave request should have been approved.

Hope you can get this sorted out.

I would not disclose flight or travel plans myself, but what is done is done.

What about crying babies keeping people awake all night. I know when mine were small I often went to work with less than optimum sleep. Should we not employ anyone with children under 2?!?! Crazy.

This is absolutely insane and I would be escalating it. She doesn't get to tell you what time you need to go to bed. I've done many a days work on virtually no sleep when the kids were small.

Assuming that you're not about to drip feed something about your work requiring you to operate dangerous machinery or similar, this is ridiculous.

It would be very tempting to ask the manager for the company's policy on staff bedtimes 🙄but obviously that wouldn't go down well.

In reality, I think I would just respond honestly to say that you're really surprised at this refusal and at the reason which has been given, and asking your manager to reconsider her decision. State that you appreciate your line manager's concern for your wellbeing but emphasise that you're absolutely confident that you'll be fine for work the next day and that you won't be asking for any special allowances to be made for you. Add that you consider that the activities you choose to undertake in your own free time and the time you go to sleep to be personal decisions over which you expect to have some autonomy, and that you don't feel it is appropriate for management to weigh in on these. Finally, make it clear they you recognise that it would of course be reasonable for the line manager to raise any concerns if your activities outside activities should impact on your performance in any way, but reiterate that you're entirely confident that they won't.

^^ Good response. Much better than my earlier suggestion

That is madness, I would challenge that! That sort of thing needs to be nipped in the bud straight away. Most people happily talk about their holidays anyway but not if it's going to be used against them. Never heard of anything so ridiculous

God. You could be at rave on Sunday night every week. Wtaf?

What if you do a Netflix binge one night? Does management declare that you’re not fit for work?