For thinking the details of my holiday are none of work's business

[Truffleshuffle84]

I work for a medium size company in he UK

Staff handbook says all leave must be agreed by your line manager and will be approved on the basis of business need and general staff numbers/ work coverage etc - all fine, been here for 8 years, never an issue. I'm in a team of 5 and collectively with our line manager we manage to get holidays to suit everyone etc.

Line manager left in June and we've got a new one from a different department, no issues, we all get on well.

But, I've asked for a week off in the autumn for the school holidays. LM replied asking when I was away and where was I going, I thought it was just a casual passing interest type question, replied with details of our plans.

They've now rejected my leave request because they don't think I'll be fit for work Monday returning from Tenerife on a Sunday on a flight that lands at 10.30pm (at an airport 20 mins from home).

I've not replied yet but AIBU for thinking it's up to me how I spend my annual leave and it's up to me to decide whether something is achievable whilst being ready for work the next day?

What if you’re awake past 11pm because you’re making sweet love? Or are you only allowed to do that at the weekend? Do you have to tell her and try to book Monday morning off?

That’s batshit. What if you have insomnia, a baby that wakes every 3 hours, a demented cat that likes making biscuits on you at 4am? What if you want to binge watch Bridgerton, read a dirty shape shifter novel late into the night, or have a midnight snack? Does she have jurisdiction over that too?

So she refused your leave because she has an opinion on something that has absolutely nothing to do with her. Screw that, I hope HR helps.

Reply, thank LM for their feedback and suggest you’ll switch to the Saturday lunchtime flight instead.
Don’t change your flight, your plans or anything else.

It’s none of their business what you do in your time off.
Plenty of people do an all nighter then freshen up and go into work. They pay for 9-5, the rest is not their business.

I wonder if LM expresses this much concern for parents of young children?

This is pretty good but I would adda little more, because your shorter "I'm satisfied" phrasing doesn't fully communicate quite how inappropriate it is for her to have an opinion about what youdo with your time off.

Something like (obviously eduting to your own words) "I agree with and respect your position that I must be fit for working at full capacity on Monday. However, it is not within the remit of you or the company to decide what I am doing with my time on a Sunday evening, and as an adult I have the freedom.to decide that as well as the responsibility to ensure that the decisions I make are in line with achieving my commitments, and I have the capacity to know my own limits and capabilities. If I wasn't on holiday I could stay up late on a Sunday night for any reason. I take full responsibility for my decisions and if I am not alert enough to work at full capacity on that or any other Monday due to such decisions then I agree that could be a disciplinary issue. However it is not reasonable for you to pre-judge that I cannot manage and organise my non-working time."

Amused to see so many people saying that it might be okay if the OP is in certain jobs such as being a surgeon!

My wife is a consultant surgeon and it is not unknown for her to operate all day, then be called in to operate through the night finishing at eg 5am, come home, sleep for two hours and go back in to do another day’s operating! So over 30 hours of operating with only a couple of hours sleep in the middle…

It only happens rarely but probably at least once or twice a year (more frequently than holiday flights arriving back late!)

The NHS is certainly not set up to ensure that everyone doing delicate jobs has good sleep the night before!

OPs line manager has overstepped the mark by a long way… I would simply email back putting her back in her box (cc to HR) with a comment along the lines of ‘thanks for your concern but how I spend my Sunday evenings is outside your remit as my manager, and not a business decision. I am happy that I will be fit to work on the Monday am.’

I see your update and hope that your leave is approved.

God I am fuming for you!

See how they respond.

If it is still a no, absolutely get HR involved and ask where the policy is on minimum sleep /rest requirements to do your job effectively?

Honestly I have got off a plane in the early hours and rolled into work in the past. Nothing to do with your manager.

Your line manager is bat shit. Following their logic, no one should go any for a weekend because they might be tired on Monday morning or get stuck in a traffic jam on their way home.

Unless they want to start paying you for Sundays, what you do on those days is none of their concern really.

My Dad talks of the years that he used to go out in town drinking and be travelling past his office at 5am, knowing he’d be back there in a few hours 😅

He did used to fall asleep at his desk though! And my mum (before she was dating him- that’s how they met) used ring his office phone to wake him up as she worked across the office and could see him asleep 😂

This is spot on. Absolutely. Did something similar once around maternity leave. I had the CEO at the end of my email, no response from gim directly but leave was then approved.

How can that response even be legal? It's like saying no you can't have a night out, get up too early, eat takeaway, sleep without pyjamas, not run marathons, .... as you might, or might not, be fit for work on a Monday!?

Perhaps you could also ask, in exactly what way and where it is stated, you should be fit for work after a relaxing break in Tenerife?! It's sooooo subjective as to what 'state' you need to be in that LM doesn't have a leg to stand on. Like someone else said, you go to bed late anyway, no difference, so, they'll fire anyone who doesn't go to their own bed by 9pm on a work night? Problematic for them OP. This is outrageous.

Not a brain surgeon! If I was I'd be off somewhere more exotic than Tenerife 🤣 (and probably booking the Monday off too!)

Office job, 9 - 5 working day, 25 mins door to door from home

Let's see what Monday brings. I think it'll be fine, either when my LM realises she's out on a limb or in the event of another no when I flag it to HR.

I agree about keeping schtum in the future on plans, I'm annoyed at myself for being so open but I've always had great relationships with previous LMs and didn't think this one would be different. Lesson definitely learned!

Madness

the odd night I may not go to bed early and be watching tv till 1am

wouid they know this

yesrs ago as a nanny as flight was delayed - I flew in from Dominican Republic and landed at 4am. Home 5am. Went to bed for 2hrs and up at 7 and at work 745

yes was tired that day but went to bed early Monday eve

Bonkers!

Is this part of a general trend of authoritarian behaviour, ir just a one off?

@Truffleshuffle84 Please do come back and tell us the outcome! I really want to know what happens and if your LM sees the error of her ways.

I would do this, you are just checking what the policy is (there won't be one) so you don't have to pay to move your flight twice, you obviously won't be moving your flight, you'll just be flagging to HR that your line manager has declined your leave for no good reason! Hopefully they come back with "there is no policy have a nice holiday".

Sounds like the kind of LM that will just be petty stress & grief down the line.

Unless you absolutely love your job I'd be keeping my ear to the ground for another. She sounds like the kind of idiot no one wants to be managed by and this will be the tip of the iceberg. What a useless plonker and frankly, a liability to the company.

Regardless of her reply on Monday, HR need to know that she has refused it for this reason. They'll keep a record and it might help someone else in the future if a picture of her behaviour has been started.

Wow! I'd use your draft reply but add that what you do in your own time is your business and the Sunday is your own time. If your arrival was in the early hours of Monday morning then she'd possibly be able to cobble together some rationale. But as it is she can get tae fuck.

I have travelled 12 hours on the over night bus, then train straight into work

The only time my employer attempted concerns about foreign holiday was just before the covid lockdown

Tell them you got the landing time wrong, it's 8.30.

That’s bonkers. As someone said what if your normal bedtime was 2am? Is she new to management?

That’s ridiculous, you’re an adult and fully able to decide if you’ll be fit for work the following day or not. If your LM doesn’t reconsider I’d be straight off to HR.

Do you need to tell your LMmif you’re off out for a few drinks at the local pub on a Sunday evening too.

Super impressed by this response op. Well done you.

😁

They have set the tone for the future.
Its a dot all i's and cross all t's while watching your back😬

I would also check if the 2 staff (off the Monday in question) had to disclose their plans to get approval or if their sign off done with the old LM. It would give you an indication if there is a wider personal issue.