AIBU to agree with Diane Abbott

[Elephantiner]

I cannot stand Diane Abbott, she has a lazy, patronising manner which riles me, but she has said that people visiblybof a different race (e.g. black people) experience a different sort of racism than those who’s race is not visually obvious (travellers, Jewish people etc). She has a point, doesn’t she? Am I missing something here?

Obviously all types of racism are utterly abhorrent.

She’s very obviously right, much more overt racism at people who’s skin is a different colour to the majority.

obviously all forms are bad.

I don’t think there should be a hierarchy of racism. In terms of history, the Jewish community has experienced racism for thousands of years - the colour of their skin is irrelevant. I really don’t like this type of comparison, and it feels intrinsically wrong.

Im not sure it’s helpful to have discussions about different sorts of racism (ie between different races) unless it’s in the context of highlighting micro aggressions for example. Otherwise, the risk is people think you are implying one form of racism is worse than another.

Having been called out on this before, you think she’d have more sense than to open herself to that criticism again.

She is right. She’s also stated that yes, those other groups do experience it, but it’s far more overt for people of colour / obviously other

Hasn’t stopped the party immediately accusing her of antisemitism though. Even when she quite clearly stated that Jews also experience racism. I won’t get started on Gaza, I won’t start on Gaza I won’t.

It's reductive to compare race in this way. What does 'a different sort of way' even mean. It's subjective - some people will feel racially discriminated against and others won't, even in the same scenarios. And how on earth can she possibly know? What metrics is she using?

I have always believed that to dislike someone just because of their skin colour is illogical and stupid , just as to bend over to show favour to people because of their skin colour is patronising. However it cannot be denied that racial characteristics do not help people whose race has become associated with a certain kind of behaviour and the colour of someone's skin is a very obvious one. When I was young and living in a multiracial area, there seemed to be less hesitation about becoming friends with others based on their character rather than racial characteristics. However the advent of DEI has driven more of a divide between races and that is down to activists of all colours including the white woke chattering classes.

I also cannot stand Diane Abbot but even a stopped clock is right twice a day, she is right on this and on assisted dying.

All she has said, as far as I know, is that black people are instantly identified by others as black while people from other groups are not always instantly identified as coming from that group. Which I agree is true.
She hasn't said there's a hierarchy of racism it's just different. Black people cannot hide being black, for them racism is inescapable

She's partly correct but it's not a bloody competition Diane, all of it's wrong, there's no kudos to be gained by claiming the top rung in a hierarchy of oppression. She is definitely not everyone's cup of tea but she's put in the years with Labour and they've treated her badly given her years of service, so I expect she's feeling pretty miffed.

But it’s at best idiotic, at worse malign. Yes, you can instantly see skin colour in a way you can’t always see other things - but (a), in her constituency alone there are lots of orthodox Jewish people who, through their dress, are equally as instantly recognisable by their Judaism as anyone would be by their skin colour, (b) it suggests that people have the privilege of hiding their Judaism in a way black people can’t, which is crass (to say the least) given the history of Jewish persecution and the complete inability to hide from that persecution (not to mention that nobody should have to hide their ethnicity or see doing so as a privilege), (c) she compared Jewish people and Irish travellers to people with red hair, which is trivialising and comparing groups who have suffered genocide (Jews) and hugely low social and economic discrimination and disadvantage (travellers) with people who suffer social bullying, and (d) she did this in the context of the Labour Party being blind to antisemitism in its own ranks, including by the leadership at the time of which she was a senior part. And lastly, she said today that she didn’t understand why anyone would object to what she said, which given the discussion about it at the time must mean she hasn’t listened to anything anyone said. She doesn’t have to agree with the point of view, but to not even be able to state what it is must mean she’s either unwilling or unable to listen.

So no, I don’t think she’s right, and my sympathy is about level with the floor.

Equating Jewish people in England with Gaza immediately. And now you’ll say you’re not an anti semite

Yes and no.

At the most basic level she's obviously right: you can't hide being black or "pass" in that highly unpleasant phrase. It's inescapable and its much more blatant when it involves people who are visibly of a different ethnicity.

I also agree with the poster who said there shouldn't be a hierarchy of racism and endless sub-categories created with different levels of compassion attached. We shouldn't forget many people have historically used the argument that Jewish people are "white" (even though many are not) and therefore they don't experience discrimination in society in the way people of colour do. Which is simplistic, insidious and misleading. Although I respect Diane Abbott a lot and think she's been endlessly bullied throughout her time as an MP, she does spend more time revisiting this topic than is sensible for her and doesn't help herself here.

And for people saying they can't stand her. At one point half of all abuse towards MPs on twitter was directed towards her. Is she really so unlikable that she deserves that? No, that's racism (and probably a bit of sexism thrown in) It became a bit of a thing to have a go a her when she fluffed those figures. While other MPs who said much stupider things didn't get nearly so much abuse.

She’s entirely correct

As a Londoner, I notice people are more racist to Travellers than to those of African/Caribbean/ Asian heritage.
The travellers get a really tough time there is a lot of prejudice. I think it is because here we are a very mixed community already, less than 40% white. Everyone mostly accepts one another but not the travellers. People are suspicious and scared of them in a way I don’t usually see around here (London).

Of course it’s different if you can “pass”. I’m not sure it’s better just different. It’s a bit like being obviously visibly disabled and having an invisible disability. Your experience is shaped by how easily you are identified.

She’s entirely correct unless she’s said that one is worse than the other.

Some can 'hide' their ethnicity/identity, and some can't.

It's irrelevant anyway. A person can hide their sexuality - does that mean homophobia is less bad than other discrimination? It's just a weird stance to take.

I don't think it's about creating a hierarchy of racism as such - all forms are insidious and deeply harmful. However I do think there are certain privileges afforded to people who's heritage/religion/ethnicity is not very obviously visible that others do not experience. Being black is one example of this, wearing certain religious dress (for example what Jewish or Muslim people may wear) is another. There is a certain element of choice attached to religious clothing that obviously doesn't exist with skin colour but again that is very nuanced and many people may not see it as a 'choice' for lots of valid reasons. But ultimately someone could decide to leave the Orthodox Jewish community or decide to stop wearing Hijab and noone would know they ever wore religious/cultural dress in the first place, a black person won't ever be able to decide to stop being black.

One of my friends growing up was Jewish and I didn't know until she told me, not that it made any difference to me. But she had the privilege of being able to provide that personal information in the way she saw fit, when she saw fit and to who she saw fit. Others don't get choice in that and don't have the option to stay quiet about a part of their identity should they find themselves in a social dynamic where they feel unsafe or uncomfortable because of others behaviour.

I don't think it's about undermining the experience of one person to be able to recognise that another will experience racism in a different way. And I certainly wouldn't describe it as specifically anti-semitic given that Jewish people, as with any other collective are a diverse social group so there will be diversity within their experiences as well. I do think it's about having a sense of understanding of the difficulties some people may face and how it affects them specifically. And to me that is important in addressing racism in all its forms and appropriately supporting people.

It doesn't make the racism or xenophobia any less harmful and unacceptable, but it's acknowledging that certain people will have a different experience of it and for some people there is more inherent risk attached because their heritage or religion is immediately identifiable by harmful people which could unfortunately make them a target.

But she didn't just say it was different. She basically said that non BAME people could experience prejudice but that it was not racism. She included travellers, Jews, Irish people and even redheads in her comparison.

She absolutely was saying that one was worse than the other.

She wrote: “It is true that many types of white people with points of difference, such as redheads, can experience this prejudice.

“But they are not all their lives subject to racism. In pre-civil rights America, Irish people, Jewish people and Travellers were not required to sit at the back of the bus.
“In apartheid South Africa, these groups were allowed to vote. And at the height of slavery, there were no white-seeming people manacled on the slave ships.”

That she is diminishing anti semitism (and therefore the holocaust) by comparing it to prejudice against people with red hair is beyond belief.

Racism comes in lots of forms. But her whole tone was that the suffering of people from BAME backgrounds is worse. And that is a flawed argument

No she’s not right. Look at the persecution of Jewish people over time.

I think there's almost a certain level of socially 'accepted' racism when it comes to travellers which is horrible. And a lot of victim blaming.

Diane Abbott didn't bring it up. She was asked about it in an interview. I have a lot of time for Diane Abbott and I think the media spend a lot of time trying to discredit her. Probably can't stand to see a black woman in a position of power.

She's right at the base level that racism based on skin colour is different to racism based on religion/nationality.

I'm suspicious about what her motivation was in pointing this out/making an ongoing issue of it in this way. It does seem like she is trying to create a racism hierarchy, although she hasn't specifically said this. It's hard to imagine why else she's choosing this hill to die on.

She absolutely did bring it up! She wrote a letter to the Observer.

It's back in the news after a recent interview asked her if she regretted what she said in that letter but she chose to double down on it.

We get a lot of Orthodox Jews travelling here. Even if they're not wearing traditional clothing it's usually pretty obvious who they are.

Similar for Irish Travellers.