AIBU to agree with Diane Abbott

[Elephantiner]

I cannot stand Diane Abbott, she has a lazy, patronising manner which riles me, but she has said that people visiblybof a different race (e.g. black people) experience a different sort of racism than those who’s race is not visually obvious (travellers, Jewish people etc). She has a point, doesn’t she? Am I missing something here?

Obviously all types of racism are utterly abhorrent.

She's just been suspended from the Labour Party.

Diane is right that Jews etc were not sent to back of the bus in pre-civil rights USA, but in other countries at other times similar happenned as they were forced to be visibly different so there was no "passing German / Austrian" by having to wear a Yellow star of David at all times at being completely banned from certain jobs and businesses that is considerably beore Holocaust started.
it is possible that Jews like Nigella lawson and David Baddiel are not instantly recognised as jewish from 100 metres away, but a Jew with a kippah or tallit will be recognisable as jewish 100 metres away, of course I suppose they could not wear those items like people could not wear a hijab or turban or Sari but people should not have to hide this just because it is physically possible unlike a skin colour
though I suppose a burka and gloves could hide skin colour

I am not for a moment suggesting any of these grups should hide anything and all discrimination is wrong

Yes, she’s right that people who are immediately recognisable as being of a particular race or religion (whether that’s through skin colour, or religious clothing) will experience racism differently.

But what was the context of her saying this? What point was she trying to make? I don’t think it’s a particularly useful (or insightful) point, especially on its own, but I assume there was context?

She was responding to this article which said that gypsy/travellers and Jewish people were amongst the most likely to say they had suffered racist abuse.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/apr/15/racism-in-britain-is-not-a-black-and-white-issue-it-is-far-more-complicated

Diane doesn't think they can experience racism. Racism is only for people with dark skin according to Diane.

I still can't get past her comment about the buses. It's true that Jews were not being sent to the back of the bus in 1950s America, but they were being murdered in their millions here in Europe in the 1940s.

She's either a Holocaust denier or incredibly thick. Maybe both.

It was a clearly antisemitic post. Thank you for calling it out.

There are a lot of sneaky untruths here. @AmateurNoun she has said nothing of the sort. You are being flatly dishonest.

DA has said that black people are subject to racism in a different way, and that’s patently true. I can see that someone is Jewish or a traveller but I can see that they are black. Very much racism results from just this.

Starmer is an arse, frankly, regardless of what any of us think about DAs politics.

Diane Abbott wrote her letter to the Observer as a riposte to an article in the paper by Tomiwa Owolade* 'Racism in Britain is not a black and white issue...it is far more complex.'
The article under the sub heading 'A report on ethnic inequality reveals that Irish, Jewish and Traveller people are among the most abused', was based on an 'Evidence for Equality National Survey' carried out by academics in 2021. More than 60% of Gypsy, Traveller and Roma, 55% of Jews and 40% of Irish out of the total of 14000 surveyed, reported that they had experienced some form of racist assault. For black Caribbean people the figure was nearly 50% and black Africans more than 30%. For all Asian groups, whether South or East Asian the figure was less than for the Irish. He argues that it is too narrow to say race is black or white.
Source: https://guardian.pressreader.com/article/281728388810012

*He is a journalist who writes in various newspapers about race, education, etc and wrote a book 'This is not America'. He was born in Nigeria and is a black man.

That's why Diane Abbott fired off the letter:

' Racism is black and white
Tomiwa Owolade claims that Irish, Jewish and Traveller people all suffer from “racism” (“Racism in Britain is not a black and white issue. It’s far more complicated”, Comment). They undoubtedly experience prejudice. This is similar to racism and the two words are often used as if they are interchangeable.
It is true that many types of white people with points of difference, such as redheads, can experience this prejudice. But they are not all their lives subject to racism. In pre-civil rights America, Irish people, Jewish people and Travellers were not required to sit at the back of the bus. In apartheid South Africa, these groups were allowed to vote. And at the height of slavery, there were no white-seeming people manacled on the slave ships.'

Source: Guardian comment is free: letters. For some reason I can't paste the link. I hope posting the letter isn't in breach of copyright. I might have to remove it.

Racism is racism.

it’s not a competition. fFS

I have not said anything untrue. I am literally posting what she wrote. She said that Jewish people are not subject to racism and are only subject to "prejudice". She contrasts the position of Jewish people with black people in 1950s America as if what they experience is not so serious, whilst ignoring the murder of 6m Jews in Europe that occurred just before that in Europe in the 1940s.

It’s patently obvious that if people can’t tell you are of a different race to them (as I type this I wonder what “race” actually means and who decided the boundaries) then there will be times where you are not the focus of racism. You will of course be in a racist environment and know that it is not nurturing to you or your family, but there will be times you are less impacted.

I am originally from an EU country and lived in the UK for 13 years. I am of fair complexion. I have been talking to people that wouldn’t define themselves racists, however they would bear a grudge against “immigrants”. When I pointed out that I am an immigrant as well, I was told it’s not the same. I suspect it has to do with the visibility of my “immigration status” compared to others. So, Abbot has a point, however the concept itself of racism should not have a hierarchy.

I hadnt seen that. She has a point about the visibility of black racism but it is true she has made it very badly. What was she thinking?

I've studied historical race and genocide issues, and it's definitely useful to understand the nuances of different reactions, in order to characterize, explain, and - hopefully - see a way forward.

All manner of uncomfortable truths must be confronted in order to defeat it.

Thanks. If she had just said that being black is a bit different to being Jewish because it's immediately obvious even from a distance and a mere glance that you are of a different race, I wouldn't have disagreed with her. But her ridiculous letter really irked me.

I am not Jewish or a traveller by the way - I just think that they can be the victims or racism too.

Do we feel there are different types of rape?
Oh I had sex with her but she didn't dissent
she was drunk
I only put it in a bit
She's my wife
It goes on.

No we wouldn't.

I'm the eyes of the law rape is rape
Racism is racism

Next thing will be believing racist behaviour by some races isn't actually racism if the perpetrator is from a race which was treated badly.

How do you know with certainty how Jewish people experience antisemitism?

Why does she need to comment on the experience of Jewish people at all?

Nobody knows with certainty how anyone experiences anything. Most of us talk to each other, read, maybe look at history etc and have an idea of how others live.

So how can you be so certain with your previous post with the ‘patently obvious’ line.

I do listen to people, it’s why I think Diane Abbott is wrong to say what she did. It looks like she’s been removed from the party again for it too.

Why are so many people saying that all racism is bad??? We know. OP knows. It's pretty much said in the last sentence of the OP. That's not the point being made.

No, there's no "hierarchy".
Yes, it's all bad.
No, it's not a competition.

But having a visible difference will give you a different experience. Surely that's fair enough to say? Is this the Mumsnet racism coming out to play?

That would be fair enough to say if that was what she said. But she didn't say that. Everyone should read what she actually said.

I agree. How the Labour Party have made her comments a leap to anti-semitism, I don't know!

It’s a statement of the obvious but I didn’t realise it was a competition. And Jewish people and travellers get lots of vile hate and racism - in fact hating travellers is pretty much socially acceptable.

I don't think it matters what you intrinsically feel but the colour of your skin is not irrelevant. It immediately singles you out as being a different race.

Obviously the likelihood that you will face racism is much more likely when people can see that you are clearly of a different race.

Some Jews look more stereotypically Jewish than others and I can imagine that they face more racism than Jews that just look like white British. I mean why would someone be racist to you if they don't know that you are actually a different race?

Of course, once someone knows that you belong to whatever minority they have a problem with you it's different and I'm not saying that the racism that Jews, travellers or Eastern Europeans face is less vile. I'm just saying that's because it's not obvious what they are they are less likely to face racism till it becomes obvious.

Why comment on Jewish people in particular? As Abbott did