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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

AIBU to agree with Diane Abbott

808 replies

Elephantiner · 17/07/2025 14:18

I cannot stand Diane Abbott, she has a lazy, patronising manner which riles me, but she has said that people visiblybof a different race (e.g. black people) experience a different sort of racism than those who’s race is not visually obvious (travellers, Jewish people etc). She has a point, doesn’t she? Am I missing something here?

Obviously all types of racism are utterly abhorrent.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
16
Longingdreamer · 21/07/2025 09:20

Frummie · 21/07/2025 09:01

That sounds suspiciously like the arguments for accepting transwomen as women, and the argument is just as phony.

Excuse me?!

Judaism is an ethno-religion, and those who have Jewish ancestry are considered Jewish as a result. There is a wide spectrum of religious practice, and it's not up to any one individual to gate keep who is Jewish. This has nothing to do with transwomen.

SharonEllis · 21/07/2025 09:38

Frummie · 21/07/2025 08:59

None of them Jewish.

They would find that opinion very upsetting. Luckily their Rabbis and communities don't agree and its not really possible for me as a non-Jew to go into it any further. For the purposes of this conversation they are still subject to antisemitism. 2 of them have obviously Jewish surnames due to marriage. Their children have Jewish names which are visible in job applications, medical appointments, when they make payments or show ID and within their communities at college and work. They wear signifiers of Jewishness, their synagogues and community organisations are impacted by antisemitism.

Oshio · 21/07/2025 10:55

Frummie · 21/07/2025 08:15

I am a frum Jew and I do understand kashrut laws, which is why I immediately questioned the story of the kosher-keeping Jew who ate Tunisian chicken but then had an issue with the baklava.

Turns out he was born a non-Jew but pretend converted, aka cultural appropriation.

There are secular Jews who were born Jewish and I'm not questioning their Jewishness. But those who weren't born Jewish should kindly not just put on a kippah and claim antisemitism. To me that smacks of Dolezalism.

There isn't a Beth Din that would convert a non-Jew if he wasn't ready to start keeping kosher.

No, he didn’t “pretend” to convert or culturally appropriate anything. Not that it’s any of your business, but let me spell it out.

He has a Jewish grandparent as i said in my first post, and took a deep interest in Judaism from a young age. He didn’t just throw on a kippah and start calling himself Jewish, that took years.

He’s currently in his third year of a master’s in Biblical Studies, spends a huge amount of his time in private study and prayer, and just completed a summer course in beginner’s Biblical Hebrew. After his degree, he plans to go to Israel to study language further - and hopes to eventually become a rabbi.

He initiated the conversion process himself through his university chaplaincy, under the guidance of a kind and supportive rabbi and his wife, who visit monthly for Shabbat with the students. That rabbi has encouraged him to live according to Jewish law as much as his circumstances allow—and that’s exactly what he’s doing.

He studies, observes the various things, and commits sincerely to a Jewish life—even with significant limitations. That’s what real conversion looks like.

He can’t attend synagogue regularly because he’s disabled and the nearest one is hours away. He also can’t fully keep kosher, because he lacks access to a private kitchen and receives meal support due to his disability. The meals provided aren’t kosher - but he still does not eat meat and dairy, doesn’t eat pork, and keeps all Jewish holidays, including the fasts. He no longer celebrates Christmas - not an easy decision for him, or for me, but one I deeply respect. He wears a kippah, even if discreetly for safety, and is an active member of his JSoc.

Most importantly, he lives with kindness and integrity. And because of his decision to live visibly and proudly as a Jew-in-process, he’s faced serious antisemitic abuse. His Grandfather was a Jew from Thessaloniki who lost most of his family in the Holocaust.

So no - it’s not cultural appropriation. It’s commitment, courage, and faith. Kindly sit down.

Oshio · 21/07/2025 11:00

Humdingerydoo · 21/07/2025 08:17

Just FYI, Frummie absolutely does not speak for all Jewish people with this narrow-minded view of what a Jew is. Not everyone converts orthodox, but they're still converts and therefore still Jewish.

Thank you, my son has found every Jewish person in his life to be very welcoming 🙏 . He happens to want to convert to Orthodox or Conservative Judaism as he is deeply religious - his personal choice - so that's slowed completing the process down as more is needed that he's not able to do with the current parameters he's got, but he's doing everything he can and I can't imagine anyone being more committed than he is.

SharonEllis · 21/07/2025 11:55

Thanks @Oshio, its interesting to learn about your son's journey. I was talking to someone recently about how learning about antisemitism and taking on that historic burden is part of the conversion process. It is not something that is taken on lightly and takes great courage. I hope your son finds peace and fulfilment.

Oshio · 21/07/2025 12:25

SharonEllis · 21/07/2025 11:55

Thanks @Oshio, its interesting to learn about your son's journey. I was talking to someone recently about how learning about antisemitism and taking on that historic burden is part of the conversion process. It is not something that is taken on lightly and takes great courage. I hope your son finds peace and fulfilment.

Thanks Sharon

Hes a really interesting kid and I'm really proud of his choices.

He was a very advanced kid - A Levels early and so on, and he was always really interested in history and philosophy.

Philosophy wasn't available as a subject at the Christian school he attended, so he did religious studies as it had quite a lot of similarities. He wasn't religious at all though, he thought himself an athiest but he read the entire bible when he was 12 (??!!) because he was just interested in what it was that pulled people in.

He studied our family background and found out lots of details on it, ancestry and Holocaust history etc, as a hobby tied in with his passion for history and then it all kind of came together and he realised he wanted to convert to judaism.

He is so committed, and it's unusual to see a young person really interested in religion but he believes its the right path for him. He sacrifices a lot to commit himself to it and he's been so upset by what's going on right now.

My family are a mix of religions bit generally Christian and my Mum is a really devoted, church every week type of person. She goes on church trips and so on.

One of the nicest things is that my son, who's now obviously very knowledgeable about scripture, teaches her lots of things she didn't know and they have these lovely long talks about it.

He will make a fantastic rabbi if he manages to get there as he has a lovely way of engaging people, listening, and teaching in ways people can connect with. He even got me interested in theology!

Anyway, I am super proud, and so I've droned on, but it's incredibly sad that he feels he has to hide this to be safe outside nowadays.

Dangermoo · 21/07/2025 12:30

Oshio · 21/07/2025 12:25

Thanks Sharon

Hes a really interesting kid and I'm really proud of his choices.

He was a very advanced kid - A Levels early and so on, and he was always really interested in history and philosophy.

Philosophy wasn't available as a subject at the Christian school he attended, so he did religious studies as it had quite a lot of similarities. He wasn't religious at all though, he thought himself an athiest but he read the entire bible when he was 12 (??!!) because he was just interested in what it was that pulled people in.

He studied our family background and found out lots of details on it, ancestry and Holocaust history etc, as a hobby tied in with his passion for history and then it all kind of came together and he realised he wanted to convert to judaism.

He is so committed, and it's unusual to see a young person really interested in religion but he believes its the right path for him. He sacrifices a lot to commit himself to it and he's been so upset by what's going on right now.

My family are a mix of religions bit generally Christian and my Mum is a really devoted, church every week type of person. She goes on church trips and so on.

One of the nicest things is that my son, who's now obviously very knowledgeable about scripture, teaches her lots of things she didn't know and they have these lovely long talks about it.

He will make a fantastic rabbi if he manages to get there as he has a lovely way of engaging people, listening, and teaching in ways people can connect with. He even got me interested in theology!

Anyway, I am super proud, and so I've droned on, but it's incredibly sad that he feels he has to hide this to be safe outside nowadays.

❤️ 🫂

SharonEllis · 21/07/2025 12:36

You haven't droned on at all, its a heartening story.

Frummie · 21/07/2025 12:37

Oshio · 21/07/2025 10:55

No, he didn’t “pretend” to convert or culturally appropriate anything. Not that it’s any of your business, but let me spell it out.

He has a Jewish grandparent as i said in my first post, and took a deep interest in Judaism from a young age. He didn’t just throw on a kippah and start calling himself Jewish, that took years.

He’s currently in his third year of a master’s in Biblical Studies, spends a huge amount of his time in private study and prayer, and just completed a summer course in beginner’s Biblical Hebrew. After his degree, he plans to go to Israel to study language further - and hopes to eventually become a rabbi.

He initiated the conversion process himself through his university chaplaincy, under the guidance of a kind and supportive rabbi and his wife, who visit monthly for Shabbat with the students. That rabbi has encouraged him to live according to Jewish law as much as his circumstances allow—and that’s exactly what he’s doing.

He studies, observes the various things, and commits sincerely to a Jewish life—even with significant limitations. That’s what real conversion looks like.

He can’t attend synagogue regularly because he’s disabled and the nearest one is hours away. He also can’t fully keep kosher, because he lacks access to a private kitchen and receives meal support due to his disability. The meals provided aren’t kosher - but he still does not eat meat and dairy, doesn’t eat pork, and keeps all Jewish holidays, including the fasts. He no longer celebrates Christmas - not an easy decision for him, or for me, but one I deeply respect. He wears a kippah, even if discreetly for safety, and is an active member of his JSoc.

Most importantly, he lives with kindness and integrity. And because of his decision to live visibly and proudly as a Jew-in-process, he’s faced serious antisemitic abuse. His Grandfather was a Jew from Thessaloniki who lost most of his family in the Holocaust.

So no - it’s not cultural appropriation. It’s commitment, courage, and faith. Kindly sit down.

Well there you go. You were snippy from the beginning when I questioned how someone who keeps kosher eats chicken in a Tunisian restaurant. Then you were condescending about his conversion and how I should accept him. Then it turns out he hasn't actually converted yet.

Well great, next time be honest from the start instead of putting half truths and biting anyone who catches you out.

Oshio · 21/07/2025 12:59

Frummie · 21/07/2025 12:37

Well there you go. You were snippy from the beginning when I questioned how someone who keeps kosher eats chicken in a Tunisian restaurant. Then you were condescending about his conversion and how I should accept him. Then it turns out he hasn't actually converted yet.

Well great, next time be honest from the start instead of putting half truths and biting anyone who catches you out.

I was snippy because what I meant was obvious and your response - to nitpick while ignoring the fact that a young person has experienced hate crimes - was nasty. Whether you “approve” of his Jewishness or up to you, but I'm a parent who's disabled and lovely child is being targeted for violence and abuse. Maybe try empathy.

HelenaWaiting · 21/07/2025 14:38

nomas · 21/07/2025 07:52

I definitely see it, Lavender.

I’m not mixed race but I can see that mixed race people may have more to say about identity than those who are not.

To see someone called a liar just because they have described their mixed race identity in different ways is just more racism.

No, it isn't. If someone insists on using their racial heritage to justify or add weight to their viewpoint, it is perfectly reasonable for others to question when their description of that racial heritage changes. My mother is Roma, my Dad Jamaican. That description never changes, not from day-to-day, week-to-week, or halfway through a thread. I have never felt the need to delve into my ancestry to embellish my racial identity. But, if we all did that, we'd find that a huge majority of us are of mixed heritage.

Frummie · 21/07/2025 15:51

Oshio · 21/07/2025 12:59

I was snippy because what I meant was obvious and your response - to nitpick while ignoring the fact that a young person has experienced hate crimes - was nasty. Whether you “approve” of his Jewishness or up to you, but I'm a parent who's disabled and lovely child is being targeted for violence and abuse. Maybe try empathy.

I don't mean to quibble but it wasn't obvious what you meant. In fact to a frum Jew it was so glaringly off - eating the chicken but not the baklava.

In any case, it's not just me who doesn't 'approve' of his Jewishness - his rabbi would say the same thing. As long as he hasn't actually converted, he isn't Jewish. This isn't a controversial or contested opinion.

Frummie · 21/07/2025 15:54

Longingdreamer · 21/07/2025 09:20

Excuse me?!

Judaism is an ethno-religion, and those who have Jewish ancestry are considered Jewish as a result. There is a wide spectrum of religious practice, and it's not up to any one individual to gate keep who is Jewish. This has nothing to do with transwomen.

A halachic Jew is one who is born of a Jewish mother or who has converted via an Orthodox Beth Din. This is pretty much the standard across the board, and even Israel only recognises Orthodox conversions.

Please leave defining Jewishness to the (practicing) Jews.

Frummie · 21/07/2025 15:57

SharonEllis · 21/07/2025 09:38

They would find that opinion very upsetting. Luckily their Rabbis and communities don't agree and its not really possible for me as a non-Jew to go into it any further. For the purposes of this conversation they are still subject to antisemitism. 2 of them have obviously Jewish surnames due to marriage. Their children have Jewish names which are visible in job applications, medical appointments, when they make payments or show ID and within their communities at college and work. They wear signifiers of Jewishness, their synagogues and community organisations are impacted by antisemitism.

And transwomen would find it very upsetting to be told they're men. Still doesn't make them women. Even if they're subject to sexual harassment, so an apt analogy.

Jewishness has objective criteria, you can't just identify into it.

ForWittyTealOP · 21/07/2025 16:05

Frummie · 21/07/2025 15:57

And transwomen would find it very upsetting to be told they're men. Still doesn't make them women. Even if they're subject to sexual harassment, so an apt analogy.

Jewishness has objective criteria, you can't just identify into it.

Nobody is saying you can! You're being very "secret club" about this.

SharonEllis · 21/07/2025 18:24

Frummie · 21/07/2025 15:57

And transwomen would find it very upsetting to be told they're men. Still doesn't make them women. Even if they're subject to sexual harassment, so an apt analogy.

Jewishness has objective criteria, you can't just identify into it.

I don't think bringing transwomen into it is very helpful. I take it you don't accept any tradition other than your own, which is your prerogative but the converts I know have undergone a full process, with their rabbi and communities, as recognised by a reform Beth Din so its nothing to do with 'identifying into it'.

Lavenderflower · 21/07/2025 18:34

This thread has taken an increasingly revealing turn. What began as a discussion about my ethnicity has now shifted into debates over what is or isn’t considered Jewish. What I find particularly striking is that some of those most eager to challenge or scrutinise my ancestry are not themselves Jewish culturally, genetically, or religiously.

It raises important questions about authority and experience. It appears that any white individual can convert to Judaism, claim racialised victimhood, and then feel entitled to define the terms of debate around racism without having personally experienced either the trauma historically associated with being Jewish or the racial discrimination they’re so quick to speak on.

ForWittyTealOP · 21/07/2025 18:53

Lavenderflower · 21/07/2025 18:34

This thread has taken an increasingly revealing turn. What began as a discussion about my ethnicity has now shifted into debates over what is or isn’t considered Jewish. What I find particularly striking is that some of those most eager to challenge or scrutinise my ancestry are not themselves Jewish culturally, genetically, or religiously.

It raises important questions about authority and experience. It appears that any white individual can convert to Judaism, claim racialised victimhood, and then feel entitled to define the terms of debate around racism without having personally experienced either the trauma historically associated with being Jewish or the racial discrimination they’re so quick to speak on.

Any idea about what conversion actually entails?

Oshio · 21/07/2025 19:03

Frummie · 21/07/2025 15:57

And transwomen would find it very upsetting to be told they're men. Still doesn't make them women. Even if they're subject to sexual harassment, so an apt analogy.

Jewishness has objective criteria, you can't just identify into it.

A man can't become a woman. But someone can become Jewish. It's a really bad analogy.

Rabbi Mervis visited his university and was happy to include my son with the other young people discussing their experiences of antisemitism.

That's good enough for me and I'm so proud that he's persevered with his faith in the face of such astonishing hate.

SharonEllis · 21/07/2025 19:17

Frummie · 21/07/2025 15:54

A halachic Jew is one who is born of a Jewish mother or who has converted via an Orthodox Beth Din. This is pretty much the standard across the board, and even Israel only recognises Orthodox conversions.

Please leave defining Jewishness to the (practicing) Jews.

Israel accepts non-Orthodox conversions for citizenship though doesn't it?

SharonEllis · 21/07/2025 19:25

Lavenderflower · 21/07/2025 18:34

This thread has taken an increasingly revealing turn. What began as a discussion about my ethnicity has now shifted into debates over what is or isn’t considered Jewish. What I find particularly striking is that some of those most eager to challenge or scrutinise my ancestry are not themselves Jewish culturally, genetically, or religiously.

It raises important questions about authority and experience. It appears that any white individual can convert to Judaism, claim racialised victimhood, and then feel entitled to define the terms of debate around racism without having personally experienced either the trauma historically associated with being Jewish or the racial discrimination they’re so quick to speak on.

Any 'white individual' can't convert to Judaism. They have to go through a rigorous process and be 'approved' if that's the right word by a Beth Din as well as accepted by their community. Its very much not something that anyone can or would want to do. I'm not sure why you single out white people in this context either. There are Jews of a variety of ethnicities. As some people have said (some open to exploring it with more sensitiviy than others) differenct aspects of identity and visibility interact/intersect in different ways, in different contexts and are experienced in a variety of ways. Its disappointing to see how dismissive some people have been, rather like Abbott herself.

Humdingerydoo · 21/07/2025 19:28

nomas · 21/07/2025 08:16

Isn’t that shorthand for what she has already explained? That she is of mixed heritage, including Jewish ancestry, but isn’t Jewish?

Is it reasonable to ask her to keep repeating the explanation below?

For instance, I am of mixed heritage, but most people cannot easily identify the specific ethnic backgrounds I am mixed with. While I am not Jewish, I do have Jewish ancestry; however, I have never experienced direct antisemitism, likely because I do not have identifiable markers typically associated with Jewish identity—such as a recognisably Jewish surname or traditional clothing.

Edited

Her Jewish ancestry is not part of her identity and she has never experienced anti-Jewish hatred because she's not Jewish. So why was she seemingly trying to imply in her post that as she is both Jewish and also a person of colour, she is in a good position to judge which form of racism is worse based on her own experience? She declared racism against black people the 'winner' as she has (unsurprisingly) never encountered antisemitism but has sadly encountered racism to do with her skin colour and then made quite a few anti-Semitic comments of her own.

I really would be interested to know if this is, in fact, the same person who a few months ago said she doesn't believe in reparations because 'black people need to get over it' or if I've got this wrong. Hopefully she'll come back and clarify.

Dangermoo · 21/07/2025 19:44

Lavenderflower · 21/07/2025 18:34

This thread has taken an increasingly revealing turn. What began as a discussion about my ethnicity has now shifted into debates over what is or isn’t considered Jewish. What I find particularly striking is that some of those most eager to challenge or scrutinise my ancestry are not themselves Jewish culturally, genetically, or religiously.

It raises important questions about authority and experience. It appears that any white individual can convert to Judaism, claim racialised victimhood, and then feel entitled to define the terms of debate around racism without having personally experienced either the trauma historically associated with being Jewish or the racial discrimination they’re so quick to speak on.

Diane Abbott also isn't Jewish or a traveller.

Lavenderflower · 21/07/2025 19:53

HelenaWaiting · 21/07/2025 02:30

I'm mixed race. I've criticised you. I guess the main difference between us is that my racial heritage doesn't change every five minutes.

To be honest, I haven’t seen the comment or criticism you’re referencing and even if I had, I likely wouldn’t have given it much weight. I'm not sure why you feel the need to highlight the differences between us, especially when, from my perspective, there are no meaningful similarities to begin with.
From the way you've spoken about mixed-race identity, it seems your understanding may be limited to individuals born in the UK parents with possibly with two, visibly distinct racial background.

In contrast, mixed-race heritage in communities such as those from South America and the Caribbean is often far more complex and layered. In those contexts, mixed heritage can include Black, Jewish, Indian, Chinese, Syrian, and various European ancestries sometimes all within a single-family line. Among those ancestries are both sephardic Jews* *, who fled persecution during the Spanish and Portuguese Inquisitions, and Ashkenazi Jewsi, who arrived under different historical conditions. Individuals can both national and ethnic identities; they identify with the both the country they are from as well as their ethnic origins. These distinct histories shape cultural identity in ways that may be completely unfamiliar to you.

This is why someone like you regardless of how you identify will likely have a worldview and lived experience that are worlds apart from mine. This isn’t a personal attack, but rather a recognition of how structural, historical, and cultural context shapes our differences. Your response only reinforces that reality.
Don't worry about mixed heritage or identity. It may be more constructive for you to reflect on your own experiences, rather than attempting to define or discredit mine.

As you are likely aware, mixed-race identity encompasses a wide spectrum of backgrounds and lived experiences. While I don’t always agree with every poster in this discussion, I can usually understand how their perspectives have been shaped. In your case, however, I neither relate to nor fully understand the approach you're taking and that, too, says a great deal.

SharonEllis · 21/07/2025 19:54

Inaya Folarin Iman on Diane Abbott, who is, like Tomiwa Owolade, incidentally much more 'visible' than Abbott on paper. Infact unless you were familiar with Nigerian names many people would probably think Tomiwa was a woman. One of the key points is how Abbott and co ironically 'rehabilitate racial thinking' by categorising people by skin colour.

'Diane Abbott has lost any right to call herself ‘anti-racist’
Her doubling down on that mad letter on anti-Semitism speaks to a sickness at the heart of the progressive left.

One of the most troubling political tragedies of our era is the moral collapse of the ‘anti-racism’ movement. A movement once grounded in universal human dignity and a principled rejection of pseudo-scientific racial hierarchies has, over the past few decades, curdled into something almost unrecognisable. What passes for ‘anti-racism’ today now openly promotes discrimination, routinely downplays abuses committed by non-white groups, and rehabilitates racial thinking by casting individuals into simplistic categories of oppressor and oppressed based on skin colour. Nowhere has the moral rot within the anti-racist establishment been more obvious than in its indifference towards antisemitism. Take Diane Abbott a revered icon of progressive politics. In 2023 she was suspended from the Labour Party for writing a letter to the Observer in which she equated the ancient hatred of antisemitism - a bigotry that has fuelled pogroms explusions and the Holocaust - with prejudice against redheads. She apologised, and was later readmitted. This week however, she doubled down on her remarks.
In a BBC4 Interview on Thursday, Abbott insisted she had no regrets over her 2023 letter. She argued that racism ‘about colour’ is different because a person’s skin colour is visible. Jews and Travellers, she claimed, may not be identifiable ‘unless you stop to speak to them’. ‘I just think that it’s silly to try and claim that racism that’s about skir is the same as other types of racism’, she said. Unsurprisingly, Abbott has now been suspended again by Labour.
Abbott isn’t just downplaying anti-Semitism here, she is trying to rewrite history, too. Her original letter did not merely suggest that Jewish and Traveller experiences differ in form. It denied outright that they experience racism at all, reducing centuries of persecution to a form of mere ‘prejudice’ on a par with playground bullying. She cited the slave trade, Apartheid and Jim Crow as atrocities meted out against black people, but said nothing about the Nazi Holocaust.
This historical revisionism, and this denial that anti-Semitism is really a form of racism, is becoming more common. In 2022, American actor Whoopi Goldberg described the Holocaust as ‘two groups of white people’ killing each other. She essentially dismissed the calculated murder of six million Jews as merely a generic example of ‘man’s inhumanity to man’.

These kinds of sentiments aren’t only an insult to Jews. They betray the tradition of solidarity that once existed between black and Jewish communities. This bond was powerful enough for Martin Luther King Jr to address the American Jewish Congress in 1958 where he described the ‘unity’ born from a ‘common struggle’ against racism and oppression. He later praised Israel as ‘one of the great outposts of democracy in the world’. His vision, rooted in moral clarity and a belief in shared human dignity, is difficult to find in modern anti-racist discourse.
The sickness of anti-Semitism is now impossible to ignore. Since 7 October 2023, synagogues have been vandalised, Jewish children have been harassed, and open, vicious anti-Semitic speech has become more frequent. You hear it from celebrities like Kanye West, who has openly declared himself to be a ‘Nazi’ and ‘anti-Semitic’ in his songs. I recently shared footage on social media of a young man in a central London McDonald’s casually shouting ‘Fuck the Jews!’. Earlier this week, a report written by Lord John Mann and Dame Penny Mordaunt, found that anti-Semitism has become ‘normalised in middle-class Britain’. Yet for many in the anti-racist establishment, this rising hatred barely registers.

If the anti-racism movement cannot recognise anti-Semitism, then it has lost its way. The fight against racism must be universal, or else it is merely an instrument of division and tribalism.
Inaya Folarin Iman'