AIBU to agree with Diane Abbott

[Elephantiner]

I cannot stand Diane Abbott, she has a lazy, patronising manner which riles me, but she has said that people visiblybof a different race (e.g. black people) experience a different sort of racism than those who’s race is not visually obvious (travellers, Jewish people etc). She has a point, doesn’t she? Am I missing something here?

Obviously all types of racism are utterly abhorrent.

Perhaps a slightly less contentious way of saying the same thing; some jewish people 'look' jewish and people will assume they are jewish when they see them across the street. Some jewish people are not identifiably jewish when you see them.

These two groups of people will surely have different experiences of anti-semitism. The former might get shouted at across the street, the latter won't. That is what she is saying I think; not that antisemitism is less bad, but that some people will be less affected by it by virtue of not looking jewish.

I thought I agreed with her. As a mixed race person who looks white I get that I have an option of avoiding racism, even if that comes with some hefty guilt so I can see a shred of a point there. There are things that happen to people because of who they visibly are (worse health outcomes, death in police custody)

But that line about Jewish people not having to sit at the back of the bus before the civil rights movement is... terrible. If the 1960s are relevant, so are the 1940s. Both cast a long shadow and I cannot get my head around her logic.

She lost me.

Why would you conflate the experience of a British Jewish person immediately with Gaza? I’m mean, really? You can’t see the problem with that?

So you don’t know what it’s like to be Jewish and the experiences some people have.

Persecution for Jewish people is historically strong and you’re better off listening to what Jewish people actually say about their lives.

A pp below talks about it for a start.

I can often identify Jewish people or travellers on sight or when they start speaking or by name. I can’t see how those people would be any less discriminated against than people of colour.

But yes, white passion people probably have it easier than those that don’t, and lighter skinned people of colour probably have it easier than those with darker skin. But I don’t think it’s fair to saw Jews and travellers always have it easier than, say, black people.

But I am also loathe to get into a “my oppression is worse than yours” type of debate.

As a white person who hasn’t experienced this form of racism, I can’t fully understand, but I support what Diane is trying to say, that skin colour is more visible and therefore it’s likely
that racism is played out in a different way.

Being a white Jew does not equate to safety as being visibly Jewish can lead to anti semitism.

The truth is who really knows except those who experience it, though I empathise with Dianne’s position and anyone who has suffered racism.

It’s not helpful, though, to compare suffering, surely it’s better for all marginalised groups to work together to oppose all kinds of racism.

Strength through numbers, division only benefits those who perpetuate inequality.

Quite.

It's not for DA (or anyone else) to say what the experiences of other people are.

Why do you think I have not listened to what Jewish people have said or unaware or do not care

I agree with the points that Diane Abbott has made

Here you go @HRTQueendo you disbelieve this?

Came here to say similar but you put it very well!

It’s actually part of the problem to override and say someone’s experience doesn’t count, to the extent someone thinks they can declare what DA has.

Remember the thread a few weeks back, where a Jewish poster shared her experience of antisemitism? How many posters asked her how the perpetrators knew she was Jewish? Far too many.

YABVU. Have you actually read the letter that she stands by? I will try and attach it.

"I'm pre-civil rights America, Irish people, Jewish people and Travellers were not required to sit at the back of the bus. In apartheid South Africa, these groups were allowed to vote..."

But no mention of the 6m Jews killed in Europe in WW2? And they killed because of their race even if they were non-practicing. I would rather be forced to sit at the back of a bus than murdered 🤷‍♀️

She's an anti-semite and a racist like her friend Jeremy Corbyn.

shes wrong and ignorant, I found the comparison to red head prejudice idiotic.

What on earth has a war 2000 miles away being conducted by a foreign state got to do with British Jewish people and their experience of racism in Britain? I think you need to carefully consider what you are conflating there; that somehow racism to British Jews is somehow justifiable because “Gaza”.

& I'll say it again there are lots of brown & black Jews! Diane doesn't seem to understand this. Yet more antisemitism training needed I suspect.

No I do not where have I said I disbelieve other peoples experiences

I agree with Diane Abbott that how racism is directed and plays out in society is different

A fair/white skinned person of any religious persuasion or ethnicity is unlikely to receive racism based on visual perception alone compared with someone of the same religion/ethnicity who has dark skin or wears religious dress or symbols.

For example, my Muslim friend in a hijab gets more abuse than my Muslim friend who has mousey brown hair, white skin with freckles and wears jeans and t-shirt - this is so apparent when I am with them esp around the time of 9/11. One could go out freely and the other couldn’t.
My friend of Indian heritage (but not Muslim) got abuse but my Muslim friend of fair skin received none.

It shows the idiocy of the human race.

Absolutely this
Some posters are actually proving her point

I'm no fan of hers but, she's right.
The abuse she's received, and continues to receive, is appalling.

I think that travelers probably experience more racism than any other group, and it goes unreported. Also anti-Semitism is huge at the moment.
I thought it was dreadfully patronising to imply that one type of racism against one group is 'worse' than another.
Why not say that any minority ethnic group can experience racism and it's a disgrace. Not trying and erase the horrendous experience of races other than her own. If anything she's racist for saying that.

For me, it was her hypocrisy over private education for her child.
Her many achievements should not be mocked/dismissed.

Ah, so now we are sexist and racist because we disagree with her. I wondered how long that would take.

I think she’s absolutely right. She often is, if one bothers to look past the unconventional delivery and the relentless media hatchet job. It doesn’t cancel out the appalling bigotry faced by travellers and Jews and Eastern Europeans, but it is true that racism is different when your race is instantly visible.

Sometimes because your race isn’t actually so obvious, people lose their filters and surprisingly expose their deeply held prejudices and racism.

I was with a group of colleagues and one decided to hold forth about how he hated the Irish; how they couldn’t be trusted, were more likely to be thieves and con merchants, were work shy and not particularly intelligent as a nation.

Guess what? My parents were Irish, but being brought up in the U.K., I haven’t got an accent so I let him finish his rant, and then pointed out to him what my ancestry was. I suspect that had one of our group been black, and he had felt the same way about POC that he felt about the Irish, he would have automatically restrained himself, so being visible can work both ways too.