Trans hate (I don't) and the same old, same old

[RetiringRita]

Well I've been on a few threads this weekend and the one that's been hijacked yet again was the question of trans hate on mumsnet.
The OP asked for opinions on whether that was a fair statement yet within minutes the question was ignored and the same FWR posters were out in force. They didn't want to answer the question so targeted their posts to state their agenda.

Sex as defined by The Surpreme Court ruling
TW perverts in women's prisons
TW perverts in female loos
Men in dresses
FTM having ASD or mental illness.

It appears those of us who sit on the fence are not entitled to be there. Those who cannot be bullied get shouted down.

I have been called the following :

Hand Maiden
Trans Ally
Not part of the sisterhood
Delusional
Captured
Shameful
Mentally ill
A liar (frequently)
A man

None apply to me.

Am I being unreasonable to ask for some understanding and compassion for trans people who don't fit the stereotypes listed?

Oh course they are due compassion in the same way anyone is. But in terms of single-sex spaces, trans people should use the ones for their sex, not their gender (same as everyone should)

Am I being unreasonable to ask for some understanding and compassion for trans people who don't fit the stereotypes listed?

You mean real people pretending to be the opposite sex not people pretending to be people pretending to be the opposite sex? Gosh, how do we tell which is which?

Surely they [the chosen ones] can have understanding and compassion, in their own single sex spaces and groups?

It's is the transgressing of boundaries and the extreme drugs being given to teenagers that's the issue.

I don’t care about the noise around it all, men shouldn’t be in the women’s loos. I don’t want to understand nor do I have compassion that men want to use the women’s loos. The end.

"Am I being unreasonable to ask for some understanding and compassion for trans people who don't fit the stereotypes listed?"

It depends what form "understanding and compassion" takes. Of course everyone should be treated with compassion and understanding. But that doesn't give anyone any additional privileges that others of the same sex do not have, or permission to ignore other people's legitimate boundaries, or to remove other people's rights.

Why in particular do they need understanding and compassion?

You are definitely not being unreasonable - but must be aware you have started another AIBU which will be full of hatred for trans people.

Am I being unreasonable to ask for some understanding and compassion for trans people who don't fit the stereotypes listed?

Are you including agender people in that, OP?
Genuine question as many seem to think that trans means wanting to be the opposite sex.

I think there is a lot of compassion and understanding for trans people who aren't trying to overstep into spaces they aren't allowed to be in. Understandably, compassion for those transgressing legal boundaries is limited.

Do you find the trans community to be compassionate and understanding towards women trying to safeguard their spaces/asking for the law to be followed?

I agree that more understanding and the ability to discuss issues calmly would be a great help to everyone.

Not confirming to sec based stereotypes is something I champion. Wear what you like, do your hair how you like, call yourself by any name you like.

I'm not a fan of medicalised treatment, I think it often results in permanent harm for a temporary feeling, but like facial tattoos and peircings we allow consenting adults to make decisions even if we don't agree with them.

But that is just appearance, it has no bearing on your sex.

And medicalisation should not be supported for children any more than FGM or tattoos for children.

Most people you perceive as anti trans are supportive of people doing their own thing as long as it doesn't encroach on others. Allowing men that identify as women into female only spaces encroaches and is unacceptable.

What would you have as a demonstration that we don't hate trans people?

I don't hate trans people, just as I don't hate men. Stating that men that are trans should be treated like men is not an insult, because being a man is not a bad thing, anymore than being a woman is a bad thing.

Personally I think trans men belong in women's spaces in most cases. I think there are situations such as rape counselling where a women that identifies as a man and has be on T for a long time with the associated facial hair growth may result in discomfort for other survivors of rape if included in the women's only sessions. Decisions like that should be victim informed and pragmatic, and should ensure all have their needs met. But there won't be a situation where it is appropriate to include a male that identifies as a women in a women's rape counselling session or similar situations. That's not hate, it's empathy.

What are you looking to hear?

Everyone needs understanding and compassion, particularly those who are living within the law.

It is much harder to find either compassion or understanding for those breaking the law or forcing themselves into spaces they shouldn't be in, but even there we can surely feel something for young people who have been so badly let down by the NHS and others?

Perfect! It is sophistry to posit that people hate trans. WHat people hate is hectoring, beleaguring, disrespecting people and demanding the majority bow and pander to a truculent minority.

And OP, do you realise that mass generalisations about a group are against Talk guidelines. I didn't see the examples you've posted as reflecting the majority of the 1000 posts in that thread, but you've said 'the same FWR posters'. I'm going to assume you are referring to me in that, and nothing you have claimed is what I have posted.

The question wasn't ignored, as you know. The OP didn't come back and engage so clearly people aren't going to sit around waiting for a discussion from the OP.

I'm sure you know all this, so could you try to not be disingenuous? Are you actually willing to discuss where your views and mine actually differ, or just write me off as a liar, needing therapy, etc etc as I listed in the previous thread?

You haven't put in your OP anything that shows that some understanding and compassion for trans people who don't fit the stereotypes is incompatible with defining sex as per the SC ruling, protecting women's rights etc. Nor have you been clear what you mean by "hate" since defining sex as per the SC ruling and protecting women's rights are not intrinsically hateful. So I don't understand your AIBU question.

Of course it's not unreasonable for all of us to have understanding and compassion for trans people who don't fit the stereotypes. We should all have understanding and compassion for all people in all walks of life and build a society where all can thrive. Upholding the SC ruling on sex, and protecting women's rights, is an intrinsic part of that. It's perfectly possible to do that in ways that also incorporate understanding and compassion for trans people. Those claiming that you can only do one or the other are disingenuous and are trying to obliterate the rights of some groups in order to grant special priviledges to other groups, and it is not hateful to call out such dishonesty.

OP the other thread filled up before you had a chance to answer the question I asked you so I will ask on this thread.

Do you think that keeping men out of womens prisons is discrimination?

And a supplementary question given your post on this thread. Is wanting to keep men out of womens prisons hateful?

I was not referring to you at all.

@RetiringRitawhat are your thoughts re the Scottish nurse, the Nottinghamshire (I think, sorry may have the county wrong) nurses? What about trans woman in sport, professional and amateur. Think of something like Parkrun where men have taken over the women’s fastest times on the women’s leader board.
what are your thoughts of crimes being committed by men being recorded as being commited by women?

i may happy to support people to live and dress as they want. But not at the expense of biological women. So how do you square that circle?

I would genuinely find it enlightening to discuss with someone who is 'on the fence' because I can't envisage what this would be when it comes to whether male people can ever be women or not - either it's yes, sometimes, if they meet this additional criterion which I will set out.... or no.

Between those two views could be 'yes, but only those who undergo surgery' or 'yes but only if they're below 5'2 ' or something else... it's hard to say because instead of specifying what it is they think and why that might differ from me, they just start being rude (usually).

OK thanks for clarifying.

Hijacked with fact and reason? Hijacked with stats, figures and personal stories as to why women deserve and need single SEX spaces, for privacy and dignity at the very least, away from MEN (trans identifying or otherwise).

Yet no forthcoming evidence or examples of all this vitriol and hate that is apparently being spouted to trans people on the daily on MN?

I do recall you weren’t that pleasant on that thread OP.

What do you want people to say? That trans women are women? They are not.

A man in a dress should use the men’s toilets. You can report me now

I think you mean Darlington rather than Nottingham. Darlington is the one where the fully intact male nurse berated the female nurses for not getting undressed while he was in the changing room

Is it trans hate? I mostly see women posting to refute the claims of trans women that they are women and therefore entitled to access women's spaces, participate in women's sports or to represent women in women only positions. Women on here and the majority of people refute this. The issue is that when this is said, especially by women it is dismissed as transphobia or bigotry when it is really just real women sticking up for themselves and their daughters.

It all comes down to if you believe trans women are actually women and most people do not believe that because it isn't true, nobody can change sex and so all trans women can ask is that people are polite and refer to them by a female name and she/her but any attempt to access women's single sex spaces, sports or representation or to be protected under the law as women is a massive overreach at the very least.

Women have had to bring up very real concerns detailing real attacks and transgressions by males who identify as women in order to make the point that these are still males who retain male levels of offending and yes that includes sexual crimes a rate that far exceeds that of women. It is also completely valid to note the link between trans identity and autism.

It is also true that the SC ruling made it very clear that trans women are not actually women under the law and that only biological females can be women in reality and expect to access the rights and protections that classification pertains to.

I'm sorry if this upsets you OP but these are the facts and it is not hatred to state them.

@RetiringRita
How exactly does one go about being compassionate to trans people who do not fit the stereotype of the categories you have listed above??

I feel that by specifically stating that I accept and acknowledge that some people want to present themselves in a particular way and that I have no issue with this is , in itself understanding.

By then going on to say what I do have an issue with, tends to somehow negate what I have previously said, and would be met with hostility.

I would say that this all or nothing approach means that it’s often impossible to even acknowledge the topic, and to be honest nowadays I personally would shy away from interacting with someone who I thought was part of the trans community , for fear of confrontation, something that I would never have done in the past.

You are’nt wrong but if you think you can make headway here you are being very foolish. It simply isn’t possible to disturb a cult mindset and that, of course, is what is in rvudence here. The trans fixation here is, like QAnon, a kind of internet moral panic and source of identity for its participants. I watch, read, snd am interested in this behavior from a rather academic point of view but I pretty much don’t engage with it any more. I also don’t argue with flat earthers, people who believe the fairies will steal their children, Trumpers, etc… I mean i have engaged in the past but have given it up.

The anti trans stuff here, like anti immigrant stuff, anti gay stuff, anti woke stuff all fills dome important role in people’s lives to be heroic and part of a great movement that is at once huge and naturally right and also tiny, secret, and threatened. The posters get a warm sebse of community when they post more and more aggressive stuff and any attempt to wuiet stuff down or see the other side is met with massive attacks and pretty aggressive push back.

In politics its called “eliminating the grey zone” and it results in the continual reinforcement of an insider vs outsider mentality. The more they attack you the more they signal to their iwn membership that disloyalty or even gentle differences will not be tolerated. The surviving posters are going to reflect this schism. Eventually you get an echo chamber not because everyone agrees but because no one dares disagree.

I am not posting this to “get at” anyone here or in response to any posts here attacking you. Just an observation based on years of reading these anti trans threads.