Trans hate (I don't) and the same old, same old

[RetiringRita]

Well I've been on a few threads this weekend and the one that's been hijacked yet again was the question of trans hate on mumsnet.
The OP asked for opinions on whether that was a fair statement yet within minutes the question was ignored and the same FWR posters were out in force. They didn't want to answer the question so targeted their posts to state their agenda.

Sex as defined by The Surpreme Court ruling
TW perverts in women's prisons
TW perverts in female loos
Men in dresses
FTM having ASD or mental illness.

It appears those of us who sit on the fence are not entitled to be there. Those who cannot be bullied get shouted down.

I have been called the following :

Hand Maiden
Trans Ally
Not part of the sisterhood
Delusional
Captured
Shameful
Mentally ill
A liar (frequently)
A man

None apply to me.

Am I being unreasonable to ask for some understanding and compassion for trans people who don't fit the stereotypes listed?

you know this has no bearing on what we were talking about right

We clearly don't inhabit the same reality.

Well I need to be perceived as a rich person. My bank is oppressing me by not believing me to be one.

It is logically impossible that any male person 'knows' or 'understands themselves to be women/female'. This simply cannot be ever true

Helle its a simple truth . A reality . If it appears to you to be “logically impossible” then you should realise there is something wrong with your logic. The world is not going to change to fit the narratives in your head. You have to take the world as it actually is.

There are more men who don’t identify as women, than those who do. If you encounter any man, including a “trans woman” you are at statistically greater risk than if you are in a female only space. Men pose a risk to women and men who identify as women are no exception.

No sorry why should women have to put up with males dressed as women and use female toilets. The court ruling is a great thing for us women and glad it was done

So say I see green as red. Until I point out a red thing and say 'look, it's green' we would never know we are talking about materially different things.

Say I think women are female people. Others think a woman is a person who drives an electric car. Until we point to one (or enough) of these externally, we can say 'a woman is a woman' all day long and be happy that we agree. You need to reference something that is not the same term in order to get a clear understanding.

No, but it’s honestly great in mine

I understand myself to be a woman only because that's the name for people with bodies like mine.

If you tell me trans women are women and I believe you, then I also have to accept that I am not a woman.

Do you see? It's not a magic free floating word for anyone to seize on for any reason, it's a label for something specifc. I either am a woman, in which cas trans women are not women, or trans women are women, in which case I am not.

Either way I am still female-bodied and I still with the consequences of that fact.

Either way, trans women are utterly irrelevent to my experiences and needs as a female person so I have genuinely no idea why the protections and provisions that were put in place for female people should be even a topic of discussion when it comes to trans women.

It's like we suddenly all started arguing about why or why not or to what degree horses should be given access to playstations.

I wouldn’t want to, I’ve agreed with everything I’ve read from them…

I don't need to be recognised or accepted as a woman. I just am one. If anyone didn't recognise or accept me as one I would laugh and say, "tell that to the kid I pushed out of my vagina".

I really wouldn't give a shit. Because if someone refused to recognise/accept me as a woman it would say more about their mental health than my validity as a woman.

How does the sun rise in the east?

You keep saying this. Please go away and have a little think about it. Then come back when you’ve worked it out.

In the meantime as I said, you don’t know what generates it motivates a trans identity. So you can’t say I’m wrong.

Some men identify as women in order to kidnap and rape 11 yr old girls (Andrew George), some men identify as women to access women’s prisons for their rape sentence. Some men identify as women so they can perv on teenage girls in the changing rooms. Some girls identify as men because they think it will protect them from sexual assault. It doesn’t.

We could examine the motivations and beliefs of every man who identifies as a woman to try and asses his particular risk but that wouldn’t satisfy the need for privacy away from men (for most women with normal boundaries).

Or we could just say that biological sex is the important thing, not gender identity.

The trans “rights” movement is patriarchal, toxic masculinity.

Tandora doesn't believe female people should be allowed to have a word for themselves or any single sex spaces, which is rather at odds with what you claim to believe.

No, you (collective, not individually focused) just want a raging debate / argument.

Just not up for it. Disagreeing with the GC doesn't mean we have to respond to demands for explanations.

Where is this utopia where men aren't dangerous and women need no legal protections from them? Is there space for the rest of us?

Doesn't surprise me in the least, given the blog post you shared.

It’s not circular @potpourree . Even children as young as toddlers make observations on the basis of gender, it permeates everything in society from the earliest years of socialisation

Saying that male people are female is not the truth, Tandora, it is a lie.

'Women are in far more danger from cis men than they are from trans women.'

You have no evidence for this at all. If you have, please post it.

Otherwise, you are continuing to make false statements. As I have pointed out, there is no evidence that any male person in the UK at any stage of transition has a lower risk of committing sex crime than the general male population.

Please post the evidence that shows this statement is false.

'Far more murders, rapes and violence happens at the hands of cis men. It is an overwhelmingly and categoric fact.'

And yet, it is not about the absolute numbers. It never was.

How many female people coming to harm is acceptable to you before women can discuss excluding male people from all single sex spaces and to not be told that they should be directing their attention elsewhere?

Why have you tried to use absolute numbers to justify your position when the evidence shows that male people retain male pattern criminality at any stage of transition in the UK?

The entire point is that for robust safeguarding to be in place to maximise the protection of female people, ALL male people need to be excluded with no special exemptions from that risk analysis and the policies.

People ARE reading what you are saying, we have pointed out the flaws in your comparisons all through this thread and your the flaws in the logic and in the evidence you use to support your statements.

So why post at all then?

Well don’t be surprised if no one takes what you say seriously. I’m sure there are plenty of other threads you can get meaningful engagement from.

thats not what I said .

I’m afraid studies of unisex and inclusive toilets do not agree with your view. The fact remains that women are more in danger from cis men walking down the street than they are trans women in a toilet. But I will wish you a good night 😴

You said "they are female", about trans women.

That is a lie.

I don’t really know what you mean by the trans rights movement - I don’t disagree that there are fairly extreme fringes on both sides of what’s become far more of a debate than makes sense to me.

I don’t think trans people, or the vast majority of people who support trans people, are patriarchal toxic masculinity. Tho I am sure you’ve had some pretty rough shit said to you if you say the type of things you say on here in other places. It’s a sign of how big the gulf is - a very normal post on mumsnet is really far over the line of ‘acceptable’ in the circles I move in. I’m not making a judgement on that I’m just saying I can imagine you get some very impolite responses. It’s like you’re going around calling people faggots and then being like ‘but it’s true’