AIBU to think that MNers are excessively hateful towards trans people?

[Wordsmithery]

I accept that there are huge areas to be addressed when it comes to trans/non-trans rights: toilets and changing rooms, sporting events, prison accommodation, to name but a few. Government has a lot of work to do, listening to people's genuine concerns and drafting laws that protect everyone. And of course biological men masquerading as trans to prey on women are scum.
However, reading some of the many MN threads on trans people, it feels like there is a terrifying level of vitriol at the right of trans people to even exist. I emphasise, this is not about toilets/safe spaces etc. It's about Will's right to identify as Jill, or vice versa. Why does it really matter so much to us - are we scared of people being different? Are MNers failing to speak out because they're terrified of being shot down in flames? How is it hurting any of us if someone chooses to identify as their non-birth gender (beyond the caveats in my first paragraph)? What is the opinion of MNers with children or siblings or best friends who announce they are trans ?
Asking because I'm alarmed by the lack of trans allies (or even trans tolerators) on this forum. And I'm even more alarmed that there may be a reassuring number of trans allies on here but we never hear from them because they know what response they'll get.
No hate please. We seem to have enough of that already.

OP, can you ask yourself whether you believe that there's a type of brain (soul?) that only women have, and a type that only men have?

And even if you do believe that, can you see why feminists might have a problem with it?

Can you put some actual examples here where posters have displayed a ‘terrifying level of vitriol at the right of trans people to exist’?

I’n struggling to relate to what you’re saying, as what I see is concern for the rights of women and the safeguarding as children. Not hatred towards trans people for being different. So it would help to have some examples.

Also, the ‘lack of trans allies’ - what would you like ‘trans allies’ to be saying on here and to what purpose?

What 'hate' are you talking about?

The OP is 'alarmed at the lack of trans allies'. I wish people would try a bit harder to be an ally to women.

There isn’t a lot of work to do. The ruling made it clear that if something is a single sex space it means biological sex so women don’t have to share spaces meant for them with men. It’s all extremely clear. People and institutions just need to obey the law.

Not agreeing with your beliefs about yourself are not denying your existence. I believe transwomen exist, I just don’t agree that they are women.

I’m OK with anyone existing. When people dictate how I am supposed to think and speak, especially when it goes against my natural instincts, the resulting frustration may indeed appear hateful. It’s probably a result of feeling disregarded and unheard.

I’m just not willing to play along with someone else’s fantasy.

No problem with mature adults living as they please, with the caveats you mentioned re sports etc.

There is a lot of harm being done to children and adolescents, most of them already troubled or autistic or gay. That’s my main concern with the ideology and something you forgot to mention OP.

@Wordsmithery we're here. But the arguments and vitriol are just so cyclical and repetitive, that there is no point engaging with them. So we make the odd comment, occasionally, and move on.

How is it hurting any of us if someone chooses to identify as their non-birth gender (beyond the caveats in my first paragraph)?

Well it's the caveats in your first paragraph that are the problem, don't you agree?

Why do you think these 'transwomen' are failing to respect women's boundaries here?

Why aren't you calling them out for that instead of berating MNers for noticing?

People are getting snippier because of the ridiculousness of it all. Men are not and can never be women and vice versa. The constant 2 + 2 = 5 gaslighting of it all and whining about "hate" when people refuse to play along. It's boring now.

It would be perfectly fine for Will to be Jill if it didn’t lead to Jill demanding they use the women’s changing rooms/toilets/rape counselling services/gum section/prison estate/swimming sessions/sports medals and scholarships/academic scholarships and programmes/places on boards, trusts, politicians seats and then have to Gail to take women to court/destroy their livelihoods/have them cancelled if women dare to point out the lack of safety and fairness.

If you consider women standing up for reality so that women and girls csn have a voice, have safe spaces, have services, have their place in the world to be hateful and vitriolic, then I’m happy got you to think that.

I agree with you.

There’s a (what seems to me) a weird cross over, particularly here, between things that seem really valid concerns and a vitriolic campaigning anti individual expression stance, and zero tolerance towards benign intent but not perfect execution.

I can’t help but think that this vitriolic campaigning approach only helps entrench the stand off and antagonistic approach from both extreme positions. Whereas a more balanced coexisting approach might get better outcomes for everyone.

Mumsnet threads exhibit the most vitriolic end of this debate I’ve ever come across. Alongside an absolute determination to make it a bigger topic and consumer more public funds than I see as necessary.

And maybe that’s because I’m sheltered elsewhere, but I regularly despair.

It’s not hateful to say no to men. Most of us have no problem with trans people existing g and doing their thing, as long as men don’t do their thing in female single-sex spaces.

If you want to see real hate maybe look at terfisaslur.com

I think the very idea you can ‘identify as a woman’ based on reductive stereotypes about appearance, behaviour and clothing is the antithesis of the second wave feminism which most mumsnetters will have grown up with.

And nothing makes you a feminist like having children and realising how things are stacked against you because of your sex.

https://terfisaslur.com

Maybe you should be calling out this genuine hate for women OP?

This.

I think yanbu, I think that it is just one of the few places people feel able to speak out what they really think about the ridiculousness of some of it. In "real life" we know that sadly you can't say what you really think about this particular topic without risking no losing friends and even jobs, and being labelled transphobic. It's a very polarised black and white issue like if you're not 100% for it and "supportive" you must be transphobic.

It seems hard to express the position I take that you want to be respectful of people and call them whatever they want to be called, (and generally I don't care what public toilets people use) but you don't agree that trans women are women, because that just isn't biologically true
.

Seriously? Have you looked at literally any trans sub on Reddit? Have you seen the millions of death and tape threats meted out by transpeople and trans activists, to women, on platforms like Twitter? MN is saintly in comparison.

It’s not hateful to say no to men.

Homestly, I think this is the very crux of it. People like the OP have internalised the idea that it is.

Nah, what's hateful is women being threatened by a group of people. We aren't interested in the trans movement; the trans movement is more interested in us.

"Government has a lot of work to do, listening to people's genuine concerns and drafting laws that protect everyone"

Continue to raise your genuine concerns respectfully. See what response you get from the trans lobby. Come back and talk to us again.

I genuinely do not care what people wear or what name they choose to use.
I have been bullied and had some really hateful things said and done to me because I do t think that gender is the same as sex.

I think a small minority are senselessly hateful, I think most mumsnetters have more nuanced and/or supportive views which is why it annoys me when people say 'Mumsnet said this about trans people' bc it's not a majority view. MN is a huge site and does provide a lot of mutual support among women on more important things than a culture war about 0.1% of the population.

When people/bots come stirring shit about trans people outside of the feminism sex & gender subforum, they are generally given short shrift, at least at first until the vocal minority finds the thread and falls into line.

I think most people here are of the "be however you want just don't try and rope me in or make my life worse" variety.
It's the usual suspects who turn up and plop all over the threads with their deliberate misrepresentations that causes all the aggro. Or start threads pretending they are just trying to understand when really they want to tell us wimmin off for womanning wrong.
Hth.