AIBU to think that MNers are excessively hateful towards trans people?

[Wordsmithery]

I accept that there are huge areas to be addressed when it comes to trans/non-trans rights: toilets and changing rooms, sporting events, prison accommodation, to name but a few. Government has a lot of work to do, listening to people's genuine concerns and drafting laws that protect everyone. And of course biological men masquerading as trans to prey on women are scum.
However, reading some of the many MN threads on trans people, it feels like there is a terrifying level of vitriol at the right of trans people to even exist. I emphasise, this is not about toilets/safe spaces etc. It's about Will's right to identify as Jill, or vice versa. Why does it really matter so much to us - are we scared of people being different? Are MNers failing to speak out because they're terrified of being shot down in flames? How is it hurting any of us if someone chooses to identify as their non-birth gender (beyond the caveats in my first paragraph)? What is the opinion of MNers with children or siblings or best friends who announce they are trans ?
Asking because I'm alarmed by the lack of trans allies (or even trans tolerators) on this forum. And I'm even more alarmed that there may be a reassuring number of trans allies on here but we never hear from them because they know what response they'll get.
No hate please. We seem to have enough of that already.

Plus, the sex and gender board is literally there to discuss issues of sex and gender.

Nobody has to accept another person's belief system - they simply have to not show hatred or violence, or even undeserved nastiness, to that person.
I accept that some men think they are transwomen.
I accept that some women think they are transmen.
I don't have to accept that as truth, because, put quite simply, it isn't.
I won't go out of my way to be horrible, but, equally, biological women like me have a right to stand up for our rights without being called all sorts of horrible names.

Will is welcome to call himself Jill, to wear whatever he likes and to present himself in ways that he considers to be typically female (however problematic those stereotypes might be from a feminist point of view). He can believe he's a woman if he likes, but what he should not be allowed to do is demand that anyone else believe it.

I'm fed up with the nonsensical claim that people are 'denying trans people's existence'. Nope. Everyone knows they exist. If I claimed to be 12, or a West Highland terrier, and someone (quite rightly) pointed out that I'm 53 and human, I'm pretty sure they wouldn't claim I'd ceased to exist.

People say this as if some of the strongest bravest women in the vanguard of this weren’t women like Alison Bailey, Sonya Douglas and Raquel Rosario Sanchez, very much not white middle class women

OP “No hate please, can’t we all just get along”
OP - stirs the pot and fucks off

Males, however they identify, are 50% of the population. Calling womens most basic civil hard won rights a 'culture war' says so much about you and how you've been programmed by the patriarchy. You don't get to pull 1% of males away from the other 49%, put them in a dress, and claim they are no longer a male and no longer a threat. A male is a male is a male.

Evidence on this site, and poll after poll after poll shows we are the overwhelming majority. Your side is the noisy fringe minority.

Wow! Does OP think we should be an ‘ally’ to such a charming man? Or offer up our teenage daughters as validation props for him in the female changing rooms?

OP said Government has a lot of work to do, listening to people's genuine concerns and drafting laws that protect everyone. @Wordsmithery we already have laws that protect everyone. The trans lobby are desperately trying to undermine and dismantle them however.

I see that a number of people have asked for examples of this vitriolic vitriol you keep seeing. Will you be providing any today?

I saw a trans woman in the gym changing room a few weeks ago and didn't feel bothered in the slightest.

That would be a changing room which should be a female only space??

Your nice male in what should be a single sex space has decided that the social contract should not apply to him.

You are not bothered about the fact that he decided your participation and gym usage ranked well below his by ignoring that yours may have been dependant on his respecting the social contract around single sex spaces?

Would he have been in any danger in your gym in the mens changing room?

If not why did he not use the mens changing room?

Sorry op but they already have all the rights that everyone else has, the UK Supreme Court has confirmed that, and confirmed it in a sensitive and sensible manner, if you read the 80+ page report. No rights are being taken away from trans people, it was overreach that caused women and children to lose rights, and posed a safeguarding risk.

The issue was organisations such as Stonewall and EDI initiatives influenced by them and other policies encouraged situations which meant that women (actual, biological women) no longer had single sex spaces for their privacy, dignity and safety.

For 99% of sexual assaults the perpetrators are male, with over 85% of the victims being female. These are crime stats from UK. Men, however they identify, are a risk and they should not be allowed into women's single sex spaces.

The push to do so resulted in a lot of issues. I'm from Scotland, and due to our government (and the determinism of Nicola Sturgeon) pushing the rights of these males over females has resulted in a rape crisis centre in Edinburgh being headed by a man identifying as a women (with no GRC either so legally male as well as biological). This man had no true counselling qualifications yet took it upon himself to counsel rape victims "to keep things fun" (his words) and speculated whether or not rape victims orgasmed during their experiences (again, his words). He also suggested that any women traumatised by having a male in a rape crisis centre or refuge should "reframe their trauma".

A violent man with face tattoos and whose ex wife and mother have disowned him and said he is "at it" as well as our previous first minister (who also said he was "at it") was transferred to the female jail in Scotland after his conviction for two brutal rapes. The Scottish prison service were acting on the advice of the government. A very prominent photo of this rapist was taken during his trial, displaying his rapist manhood in bright pink leggings and a blonde wig. This caused an outcry from the public and the prison service eventually backtracked. There were other violent male prisoners such as "Tiffany Scott" and Katie Dolowski (who is a 6ft 5 beast who attacked 10 year olds in ladies toilets) also in female prison in Scotland. The pink leggings rapist exposed the EXACT problem with men in women's prisons. So in a way I'm glad the photo was taken but it should never have happened in the first place. Even to this day Nicola sturgeon refuses to call this person a man. She's doubled down despite the risks being clearly demonstrated to all.

Then we had the paedophile "Amy" George, a butcher from the Borders who kidnapped and sexually abused a young 11 year old girl for 27 hours and who the police described as being lucky to escape. She escaped herself, but he's been sent down (thankfully to a male prison) as it was very clear how predatory he was. She only got into his car as he was dressed as a woman and therefore he deliberately breached that trust. His trans "allies" basically disowned him and said he wasn't true trans (convenient as he had been "living as a women" for a while, whatever that means). He then released a statement apologising to the trans community but not to his 11 year old victim and family for what he did. Go figure.

I could go on. I'm sure people defending them will tell me all of these men are not "true trans" etc etc but considering the messaging from Stonewall and governments is that you are trans if you say you are; the Scottish government for example were determined to push through self ID, then there really is no way to tell. Some will have genuine dysphoria distress and will hopefully receive support and help but they still should not use single sex spaces for women (if they are men).

Exactly. Quite the opposite.

Its vulnerable women who suffer most from men identifying into their spaces and services. Prisoners, the sick and disabled, rape victims, domestic violence victims, the orthodox religious.

Its the middle class white women who are relatively immune from the effects of all that who tend to be the ones declaring their 'allyship' of transwomen.

Exactly

it was hived off to the equivalent of the basement behind a locked door saying “beware of the leopard” and ppl still turn up asking why we’re talking about it there

its where we were given to talk about it!

It’s just a lazy thought terminating cliche. As I said, these people don’t have an argument beyond insults, smears and emotional blackmail.

This will fill up to forty pages by the end of the day @Wordsmithery
There are six very active trans challengers and the same number of activists. They dominate any thread with the word trans in it. Perhaps they advance search it daily?

Trans people exist and cannot be 'talked out of it'. They have existed in all cultures for centuries. Where it went wrong was the Stonewall umbrella.
Everyone was lumped together and there was money to be made from surgery on unhappy people particularly adolescents.
What people fail to understand is a cross dresser is not always a TW. Stonewall pushed for LGBTQ and that effected gay people horribly. Lesbianism was shouted down and people sued all because women had an opinion.
I have been raped yet I don't fear men. I personally don't care if they pee in a mixed sex loo but it is not acceptable to make a performance out of going into female spaces. This is a tiny number of activists or people who wish to get a kick out of shocking women. I know a number of transpeople and they wish no harm. I have a family member who identifies this way. Do I get it? No but the law is very clear there are just two sexes.
People who feel differently have a right to exist and go about their work or education. LGBT people are still persecuted in many parts of the world but I hope for more tolerance in the UK. There are 200 TW serving sentences for violence and rape. All have claimed transition between being charged and sentencing. These are not genuine trans people they are criminals who often play a long game. The problem here is not loos it's the self ID rule. You could not achieve a GRC without substantial proof of transition including surgery twenty years ago. I'd love to know who changed that?
Mumsnet is a valuable source of information and support. It saddens me when it gets a bad wrap for transphobic posts.

You don't get it, @Shessweetbutapsycho . You just don't get it. At all. It's not about 'trans women'.

It's about MALES. And males, regardless of whether they wear a dress - or whether they wear a suit and tie, are equally a threat.

Women can care about more than one issue at the same time.

The issues you mentioned fundamentally affect women. If you can’t define what a woman is, or you want to include men in that definition, how are you supposed to tackle such issues. Grassroots.

To not understand this and the loss of women having their own spaces and sports, that doesn’t include men, is privilege in itself and woefully naive. Middle class women? It’s the ones who are in prison who are having to put up with men being in beside them. Do you really think they are ‘middle class’?

It’s a male issue.

There are six very active trans challengers and the same number of activists. They dominate any thread with the word trans in it. Perhaps they advance search it daily

well it’s been a while since we were told we were 6 peopke and multiple sock puppets 😁

@Wordsmithery have you got enough screenshots yet?

What a strange example of how a man will help a woman in need. Why do you assume that everybody else might hate this bloke because he thinks he’s a woman?

you asked 'Are MNers failing to speak out because they're terrified of being shot down in flames?'

The last thread about whether trans women should be in women’s toilets there were:
1226 votes transwomen should not be in women’s toilets
233 votes that they should.

As this was an anonymous vote we can assume it is representative because no mumsnetter's would have been subjected to being ‘shot down in flames’ on an anonymous vote.

you say 'I'm alarmed by the lack of trans allies (or even trans tolerators) on this forum.'

I think most women here and IME in person do not want trans women specifically in women’s toilets, prisons, changing rooms, refuges or sports. With this in mind it is not surprising that most women are not trans allies because that requires women to ignore most women’s rights to same sex spaces and same sex sports.

I have found that many trans allies don’t seem to think beyond the idea that if you don’t want transwomen in single sex facilities or sports you are a bigot. No further understanding required. I also think that trans allies can only see the perspective of the trans woman and failed to listen to the concerns of women. It is quite possible to be a reasonable, compassionate human being and still think that women deserve and need spaces away from men however they identify in certain circumstances.

This does not mean that trans women don’t exist or trans women are erased from public life because they can’t partake in sport in the biological category that they are not. It is the allies that can’t see that not wanting biological men in women’s sport isn’t some sort of bigoted view.

Lastly, the trans allies tell us all the time that gender and sex are different things. So if a man has a gender of woman or feels like a woman then that is their gender not their sex. In order to make sense of the idea that trans women should enter single sex facilities they change gender for sex. But they are the ones saying that gender and sex are different things. Single sex is not single gender.

Make it make sense.

What is it with this obsession that people see denying their existence? We see not. We just think their gender identity trumps sex, and for good reason!

Well the post upthread imitating "denying they exist" in a whiny voice certainly looks close to vitriol to me.

Jesus Christ that’s fucking terrifying! How can these tweets (literal death threats many of them!!) be allowed without arrests being made??

OP…bless your naivety! Please click the above link and read ALL OF THESE TWEETS…then come back to your post and let us know how you are now feeling! 👌🏻

The whole vitriol thing falls apart when you learn that the threats and attacks have come from one side only.

Calling a man a man isn’t hateful, it’s a sign that some of us simply will not be gaslighted to believe that humans can change sex.

Calling it a predatory movement is also not hateful, it’s calling it what it is and the evidence is there for everyone to see. Men joining lesbian dating apps, men preventing women from meeting, men preventing women from having single sex services when they are at their most vulnerable, men making death/rape threats towards women who won’t call them women, men preventing women from have a women’s swimming pond when they have two others they can choose between, shall I go on?

The “vitriol” from women has led to women being arrested for calling men men. To my knowledge no TRA has been arrested for calling for the decspitation of terfs, or for threatening to rape them, or kill them, or for finding their house and camping outside it, putting photos and directions on Twitter, or making a bomb threat. Again, shall I go on?

Trans rights are men’s rights, and too many women are supporting it. It’s a misogynistic shower of shit.

Vitriol? Or exasperation of a repeated lie?

Yes those railing against women who just say no have a read of this.

I think you’ll find many of these people are distinctly meh when it comes to condemning male threats to women.