AIBU to think that MNers are excessively hateful towards trans people?

[Wordsmithery]

I accept that there are huge areas to be addressed when it comes to trans/non-trans rights: toilets and changing rooms, sporting events, prison accommodation, to name but a few. Government has a lot of work to do, listening to people's genuine concerns and drafting laws that protect everyone. And of course biological men masquerading as trans to prey on women are scum.
However, reading some of the many MN threads on trans people, it feels like there is a terrifying level of vitriol at the right of trans people to even exist. I emphasise, this is not about toilets/safe spaces etc. It's about Will's right to identify as Jill, or vice versa. Why does it really matter so much to us - are we scared of people being different? Are MNers failing to speak out because they're terrified of being shot down in flames? How is it hurting any of us if someone chooses to identify as their non-birth gender (beyond the caveats in my first paragraph)? What is the opinion of MNers with children or siblings or best friends who announce they are trans ?
Asking because I'm alarmed by the lack of trans allies (or even trans tolerators) on this forum. And I'm even more alarmed that there may be a reassuring number of trans allies on here but we never hear from them because they know what response they'll get.
No hate please. We seem to have enough of that already.

I did a long journey yesterday, my connection was cancelled so waited an hour for the next one which was also cancelled. Eventually I got on a train to somewhere else to connect with a train to where I needed to go following advice from train company

It was hot, I'm in my 70s, my arthritis was hurting. Obviously my seat reservations no longer existed. As I was trying to find a vacant seat someone called to me, said we'd passed the station where the seat next to them was reserved so I should be ok sitting there. I am grateful to that trans woman and that they checked arrival time at my station on their smart phone so I could let DH know what was going on.

No hate here.

for me, I honestly couldn't care if Will wants to be Jill. But I won't pretend that wanting to be Jill makes them a biological woman.

woman's rights have been trampled on by the trans activists. For quite some time you could end up in a whole lot of trouble for saying biology mattered. People have lost their jobs over it etc. the tide is turning, people are now really questioning the whole men in woman's sports/prisons/single sex spaces side of it and what you are seeing is pushback from years of being told "be kind" "men can be biological women" etc.

im fed up of seeing my rights being eroded.

Good points.

It can be really tricky to bring up concerns. Any suggestion that there might be harms for cis women results in real repercussions for any who dare to speak up.

What "vitriol"??

Saying a person cannot change their sex is not vitriolic

Saying Transwomen should not be able to access women's spaces and sports is not vitriolic

Live and let live - which includes my rights as a woman to sex segregation surely

I'm happy for transwomen to exist, good luck, have a nice life etc, but not claim the rights if actual Women. Because they are actually Men.

OP you’re completely correct, but there’s no point even raising the topic on this forum sadly. MNers are convinced that the biggest threat to their existence are trans women

“Why does it really matter so much to us - are we scared of people being different?”

Sigh.

And this is why the rape victim on the NHS ward was told she was lying because there ‘wasn’t a man on the ward.’

This is why women are losing out to men for sporting awards and categories.

This is why vulnerable abused women are being subject to being locked up in prisons, psych wards and refuges with men.

This is why women are forced to having to address their male rapists as ‘she’ in courts of law and talk about ‘her penis’.

This is why women are being pilloried for being transphobic and bigoted when they voice concerns about their own comfort and dignity on hospital wards, in toilets, in changing rooms. All the places women are most vulnerable to perverse male behaviour and attacks.

Men commit most of the sexual and violent crime. And yet they say they’re women and all of a sudden you want to just welcome them into our spaces with open arms? They must laugh their socks off at useful idiots like you op.

I believe that people should be allowed to be who they are without any violence or vitriol….
however, the powers that be in the trans community don’t actually seem to believe that themselves.

How many little girls ( and I know daughters of a few friends) who in previous decades, would have purely been masc. girls, Tom boys if you will, who are changing their names, putting ‘he/him in their bio and even going down the medical route at the young age of 12-13 …

it’s sick, and that’s where the harm is.

how can we not feel ‘vitriol’ when women and girls are the main victims of this cult.

We're shouted at, condemned, mocked, bullied, threatened etc etc for just trying to live a safe and harm free life.

Men, however they identify, are men. They remain a threat to us, they will always remain a threat to us, and I for one, will not stand back and let any man tell me that I have to accept one in our spaces.

I don’t want to take part in men’s fetishes. I despise that they are using children to legitimise their fetish. Dressing up as a women used to a bedroom thing. Being a woman isn’t a costume, I wish I could identify out of menopause but I can’t.

Yes I don’t understand how these people can think it’s fine for us to keep some men out, but see up in arms calling us a bigot because we want to keep all men out.

Noone really gives a shit if Will changes his name to Jill, or wears a dress. Crack on, express yourself however you want.

But don't expect us to be forced to deny the evidence of our own eyes and lie about what we see. People aren't pissed because Will wants to be called Jill. People are pissed because they can get fired if they don't call him a her, or they aren't willing to give up their sport, or changing rooms for someone who is either quite mentally ill, or a fucking pervert.

Noone here is advocating for death to trans people, or to exclude them from society, or "trans genocide" , or whatever other bollocks we're being accused of lately. The only thing we're guilty of is refusing to deny reality.

The extremists on the other side however? "Decapitate Terfs", "Choke on my girl cock". Those ones? Now there's some hateful fuckers. And they're doing neither women or trans people any favours at all.

Can you give some examples?

I think most people on here have a very live and let live attitude unless and until actions of trans individuals start making things unfair or dangerous to women (by sex). It’s completely fair to question whether it is correct to have men (by sex) in women’s toilets, breastfeeding cafes, other medical facilities, refuges etc where women and girls are vulnerable.

I emphasise, this is not about toilets/safe spaces etc. It's about Will's right to identify as Jill, or vice versa.

It is about what Will's identification as Jill should mean for everyone else. I don't mind people choosing nicknames or men wearing heels and makeup. It just doesn't make Will a woman in any sense which matters.

Yes, they are. Well done for giving them another opportunity to fill a thread with 1000 vitriolic posts.

You know you can be both, and for example be an ally to human beings in general, without hating on one group or another? Mindblowing concept, I know.

There's always talk from TRA's about 'both sides as bad as each other'. It's absolute nonsense.

On the one hand, you've got women fighting to keep their legal right to single sex services and spaces as detailed in the EQA2010 and confirmed by the Supreme Court as meaning (and always had meant) biological sex, being doxxed, no debated, getting rape and death threats, no platformed, forced from employment etc etc etc

And on the other, you've got TRA's having footstamping tantrums that the law is not what they have falsely portrayed it to be over the last decade and are stamping about in public with signs which call for violence against women (the most recent examples being the 'only good terf is a dead terf' ones. Multiples).

On here in particular recently, there's constant sorties from Reddit, constantly telling women that they're 'sillies' (if not worse) for believing things like, you know, women's bodies and men's bodies are different. On one thread, we were told that we're idiots as 'there's literally no difference between male and female breasts'. Let that sink in.

It doesnt matter to YOU, doesnt mean it's the same for Jill and Will.

There are some anti trans obsessives on MN ( the usuals are on this thread)who dive in to any thread that could even remotely be related and many which aren’t to push their anti trans rhetoric. They bully, lecture and preach on deaf ears. Posters make it clear they disagree and don’t want to engage. Huge looong posts then ensue push push pushing. It’s not debate it’s hijacking and bullying. I do think MN is skating on thin ice as it doesn’t seem to have the where with all to handle it properly.

Thankfully real life isn’t so bigoted.

Not hateful. Just I'm clear that they ought not come into female changing rooms. Or hospital wards. Or prisons. Or sports. Or take our prizes (Pip Bunce anyone just for starters). Or tell us that sex does not exist. Or threaten us for 'misgendering' you. Or tell us that your feelz matter more than our rights, safety, dignity and peace of mind.

Simple really.

I feel quite confused about the whole issue tbh.

On the one hand, the trans people I've met seem fine and nice and aren't sex perverts. Some are just confused and finding outlets for their mental health issues, some are now genuinely feeling like who they are supposed to be. I saw a trans woman in the gym changing room a few weeks ago and didn't feel bothered in the slightest.

I think common sense needs to be applied to things like sport, prisons, rape support etc. biology in these cases really matters.

I do also roll my eyes at most of the gender based stuff. Gender queer, pansexual and all that. I just think god no one cares, since when did your gender have to be your whole personality. I think this is a trend of the current young generation and will die out eventually

But what I don't support is straight up nastiness. Threads where someone has called the police because a trans woman was in the toilets washing their hands. There was a thread a while back about what would you do if you had to serve a transperson in a shop! Just serve them as you would anyone else! theres constant comments about trans doesn't exist, they can never pass (I've personally met two that pass) and they're all sex maniacs

I believe there are plenty of men who are sex maniacs and disgusting. They do not need to dress up as women to do what they do.

No-one here has ever EVER claimed that Transwomen are a threat to our existence.

Unless you mean a Transwoman is more likely to sexually abuse and kill a woman than another woman - you'd be correct then because the prison statistics bear up the male violence dressed up in a frock. Because Men are much more violent and aggressive than women and a dress and lippy doesn't make a whit of difference.

You cannot debate the rights of trans people without considering the safety of women - the two issues are inextricably linked. I have no problem with anyone living their life as they wish but I do have a problem if I’m expected to adapt my beliefs to suit.

Womens safety will always be the end topic, no matter how tolerant you are.

Not at all. We continue to know that the biggest threat to us is men - however they identify. A man changing his appearance and name doesn't automatically render him "safe".

vitriol what a lovely word

Women saying no is vitriol.

Women have to be allies.

So there must be a war.

And if saying no is the act of an enemy

So its Ok to hate these women who dare to say no.

Boo hoo to vitriol

Funny how women who self ID as men are expected to safely use the "dangerous mens spaces" but men who self ID some how cant use the same spaces as these women and therefore must be allowed to create mixed sex spaces by removing womens single sex spaces.

Be a good allie and make mens spaces safer for all men

'It's about Will's right to identify as Jill, or vice versa'

No-one cares if Will identifies as Jill it's when he wants to us to enable his delusion that it becomes a problem. Wear make up fine, you can't change sex though.

@Wordsmithery
It feels like there’s no distinction between transwomen and TRAs on here. Also a clear intolerance of going along with someone’s chosen gender identity if this is different to their sex. Which would be felt as hateful for a lot of trans people who have mostly likely had struggles in their life, not being accepted and faced a huge amount of animosity. But I don’t like confrontation and find the same repetitive arguments tedious and patronising. There are clearly a lot of very angry posters who spend a lot of time thinking about this and opposing it.
So I don’t engage and won’t be looking at this thread anymore.