AIBU to think that MNers are excessively hateful towards trans people?

[Wordsmithery]

I accept that there are huge areas to be addressed when it comes to trans/non-trans rights: toilets and changing rooms, sporting events, prison accommodation, to name but a few. Government has a lot of work to do, listening to people's genuine concerns and drafting laws that protect everyone. And of course biological men masquerading as trans to prey on women are scum.
However, reading some of the many MN threads on trans people, it feels like there is a terrifying level of vitriol at the right of trans people to even exist. I emphasise, this is not about toilets/safe spaces etc. It's about Will's right to identify as Jill, or vice versa. Why does it really matter so much to us - are we scared of people being different? Are MNers failing to speak out because they're terrified of being shot down in flames? How is it hurting any of us if someone chooses to identify as their non-birth gender (beyond the caveats in my first paragraph)? What is the opinion of MNers with children or siblings or best friends who announce they are trans ?
Asking because I'm alarmed by the lack of trans allies (or even trans tolerators) on this forum. And I'm even more alarmed that there may be a reassuring number of trans allies on here but we never hear from them because they know what response they'll get.
No hate please. We seem to have enough of that already.

From the threads I’ve read on the subject, there doesn’t seem to be any problem with Will identifying as Jill, as long as Jill recognises that she is actually male and therefore not entitled to women’s rights or access to women’s spaces.

But you can’t defend the indefensible that’s why.

Male bodied people should NOT be given unfettered access to places where girls and women are vulnerable no matter how they identify. ALL males. That’s common sense given male offending behaviour and not ‘hate’ towards trans people. If anything it’s hate toward male offending behaviour!

I don’t give a shit if a trans man wants to share my toilets. Crack on. So take your ‘anti-trans’ rhetoric and think a bit further than the end of your nose.

Quite!

plus of course we don’t make laws based around peoples “lovely friends”

laws around safeguarding and single sex spaces for women and girls for example should obviously not be based around the fact that my DH is lovely & wouldn’t hurt a fly

Dysphoria exists. I really hope the suffers receive support, including being explained the reality of the situation, so they can be happy with who they truly are rather than live under a cloud of deceit.
Is that hate?
(BTW I don't care what people wear, makeup or external features as that isn't what makes us the sex we are.)

Oh and the “we don’t want to engage with the arguments, they’re soooo repetitive so we just comment occasionally” crew - there’s a reason they don’t engage. And that’s because they can’t actually make a decent case that doesn’t rest on insults or male centred emotional blackmail. I’ve asked many times and I’ll ask again.

Why should I see a self selecting group of men as women, on their say so, exactly?

You’re a bit behind the times. DEI never had anything to do with actually making things better and as a woke bandwagon is being dropped by woke virtue signaller type like a hot potato.

Please give examples of the ‘vitriole’ that has been shown on mn.

Once you provide evidence of it maybe someone can address it.

This with bells on. Wear lipstick, call yourself Jill that is fine but that is as far as it should go.

Yes, you are uresanable to think that.

It's a MO as old as time to make women feel that of only they said what they said the right way, a different way, at a different time, or in a different tone, or to different people ......then they'd have been allowed to say it.

This is such an important point.

And at the same time TRAs are holding up signs saying 'decapitate TERFs' and 'burn the witch' and that's never mentioned.

Perhaps, ultimately, that's what sticks in the craw the most.

This movement tries to tell us that there's no way to identify a woman.

Yet they show they know exactly who is a man and who's a woman in how they react to them.

A man has the right to think he is woman-like; a man does not have the right to insist I agree.

I just don't tend to engage. I have reported comments that have been downright offensive and MN removed the thread. If people can speak so rudely and nasty and feign ignorance (just see all the people saying "what specific examples do you have? Ive never seen anything" when if you've read any of the hundreds of threads about trans issues you cannot possibly be oblivious to) you lack the intelligence for me to engage with you. Its depressing. Once I got told it was better for me to be called sir as a teen than other women not shout at people they think are trans. Yeah, let's shout at teenage girls who aren't attractive and are doing nothing wrong and demand they prove they're female! I didn't even bother to report that one it was so ridiculous!

Also, I could have reeled off a list of posters who will pop up to have their underwhelming little dig at FWR and glad to see most of them are here. A couple not yet, but there’s still time!

These threads are always as pointless as arguing with Flat Earthers, but every time one is created I will continue to fight back against the insanity

The Earth is not flat
Transwomen are Men
Transmen are Women

I see OP has posted and not returned.
Perhaps in all the many threads they have supposedly read they have scrolled past the ones where people have said they are trans themselves, or have trans relations or children.

If you spot it on a thread, the normal thing to do is engage within that thread, not start a TAAT.

One thing I have often observed, is how single-issue many of the feminists on here seem to be. . In my view, there are SO many issues that modern feminists could and. should be concerned about - so much vile oppression of women still occurring around the globe. Trafficking, FGM, women being denied an education, I mean, where do we start? Truly terrible things, horrific things that warp and destroy lives.

Yet some posters on here seem to believe that the worst and most important abuse of women's rights currently occurring is some privileged middle class white women having to endure (what they think is) some privileged middle class white men saying they are women.

Not women having their genitals mutilated with no anesthetic and against their will, or women being sold like cattle into a life worse than death. No, far more important to talk about a few fellas wanting to call themselves Barbara and wear fake tits.

Obviously, yes, men posing a rape threat by manipulating their way into female prisons/changing rooms etc purely for their own gratification is wrong. But I don't think it is the biggest current threat to the safety of women globally.

In fact, I think having the head space in your life to worry about trans issues at all is, for both sides, a massively privileged position to be in.

'And at the same time TRAs are holding up signs saying 'decapitate TERFs' and 'burn the witch' and that's never mentioned.'

Exactly. This is the only 'vitriol' I've ever witnessed in the trans debate coming from trans peoeple and their allies!

Of course it’s better for a woman or girl to mistakenly be called sir, which they can clear up in a second, than for women to not be able to call out a man in their space to keep them safe, which is actually what you’re talking about, right? So disingenuous. It’s not the people who understand reality and safeguarding who are lacking in intelligence.

I respect that some people believe they can change gender and I expect them to respect my belief (and the law) that a woman is an adult human female, in the same way that I respect other people’s religious beliefs and expect them to respect my belief in atheism.

I will not prioritise men’s feelings over the safety, dignity, and security of women. Common sense dictates that men, whether they’re wearing a dress or not, should not be competing in women’s sports, taking women’s hospital beds, be in women’s prisons, etc. and it’s utterly bizarre that anyone thinks it’s ok to let trans women have access to women at their most vulnerable.

If anything, what this whole debate has thrown up is that trans women don’t seem to like actual women very much unless they’re pandering to their beliefs and prioritising them even when it’s not their own best interests.

I also hate this left-right narrative. I’m left leaning and I also believe that someone can’t change sex in the same way I believe a person can’t change race. Mimicking the characteristics of a group of people does not make you one of them.

YABU. No one is saying trans identified people don't have a right to 'eXiSt'. But they exist as males or females. I think it's truly telling that you think there is 'vitriol' against trans, yet don't understand that women are simply reacting to the violent hatred, violence and vitriol of males who identify as trans against us. These are from a poster in FWR. They show exactly what the female sex are up against, and why it's galling people comment on 'vitriol' from feminists against trans, but never stop to think why there is a pushback. Worry about where the actual real vitriol comes from. Males who give us rape threats and piss all over feminist statues. When feminists start saying the below, then come back to us. Until then, you are gaslighting and DARVOing females on here merely pushing back against the physical and verbal violence of these trans activists. Feel sorry for this vitriol we get. Not for the group giving out the vitriol, violence and rape and death and torture threats.

If you can’t name a woman, and anyone who says they are one are to be treated as one, then you can’t protect women. How do you begin to tackle those other issues of a woman or girl is a meaningless thing?

I reject the ideology. There are males and females. No more no less.

What gave you the idea that it mainly affects “middle class white women”? Are they the most likely to be in prison, in women’s refuges, in locked mental health wards?

One thing I have often observed, is how single-issue many of the feminists on here seem to be. .

You can't possibly know that. People change usernames between boards, for one thing.
And for another, as soon as you (not necessarily here) try and fight for things that affect females only you will inevitably have people that insist you include male people in that, because being a woman isn't about being female it's about 'who you are inside' or 'there are thousands of ways to be a woman'.

Anyone who's publicly tried to host anything for females only will tell you that.

There is absolutely no way to tackle issues that affect women if the definition of women “includes some men performing female stereotypes”

it’s as simple as that