Junior Doctors Unemployment in August part 2

[PurpleFairyLights]

Following on from previous thread.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5337022-junior-doctors-unemployment-in-august?utm_campaign=thread&utm_medium=share

Likely 20,000 doctors will be unemployed in August.

@mumsneedwine new thread. Would be interested to hear what was discussed at the conference you were at.

There were some very interesting and imo salient points made by Marchesman on the previous thread.

What jumped out was the quick fix of 25 years ago / law of unintended consequences and the suggestion that current medical education is lighter on science than it should be for reasons linked to the financial state of universities and the prestige of schools funneling students into medicine.

Obviously there are massive systemic issues, and unfortunately students are the ones left carrying the can.

UK medical education is robust. Not a reason to bring in IMGs.

Doctors are left carry more than a can. How about £100k+ of debt and then the 7% of interest on that debt.

Was an admissions conference for teachers and Unis to talk through this year and how things can be improved. Always quite informative! Doctor unemployment, and the Leng review, were hot gossip. Many can’t quite believe the level of unemployment that’s coming this year and are v worried for the young people starting this year. Knowing you’ll get into big debt for potentially no job is v different to 8 years ago when the current F2s started, when a job was pretty much guaranteed- but training, a job. It’s a mess.

@mumsneedwine what do you think of this post? I read it as UK medical eduation dumped down 25 years ago but what has that got to do with the current system whereby UKMG have got no jobs?

@PurpleFairyLights not sure what they are going on about ! Medical education in the UK is still the gold standard (why so many want to come here) and v robust. IMGs can buy their way into training - in Nepal people were paid to sit the MSRS only do they could find out the questions and then they were sold onto doctors in other countries. Fair it is not. Better doctors they are not.

And I’m pretty sure the current consultants would be quite miffed to be told their education was dumbed down 😂

Exactly. I was concerned that it may be hinting that they thought incoming IMGs may be the solution to perceived lower quality UK doctors going though a medical school curriculum that was dumped down 25 years ago....

There have been so many awful comments about our young doctors from 3-4 posters.

They are indeed implying UK doctors are inferior, which is the tag line of BAPIO. Nice to know they are rattled. If our doctors are so inferior why are all these people clamouring to work with them ?

Meanwhile , PAs will go back to being assistants. Still paid much more than doctors, with only a v v small fraction of the knowledge and skills. If you want to play doctor, go to medical school.

That is shocking. I was wondering why there were so many horrible comments undermining our young doctors.

PAs seem to be a waste of time. Cannot prescribe, cannot order any xrays, CTs etc, cannot see undifferentiated patients.

In GP the patients they see need to be run past/seen by GP. In hospital pestering F1s/F2s to prescribe for them etc while less qualified and better paid.

I think young doctors are getting quite strong at refusing all requests from PAs, realising it’s their GMC number on the line if things go wrong. And they been less than the numpty asking !

Completely agree with that.

https://thedoctor.bma.org.uk/articles/life-at-work/resident-doctors-fear-for-jobs/

Still nothing from Mr Streeting.

Well there is this

Debt is a serious reason for a young person to give a lot of thought to the decision to apply to apply for medicine. If it's any consolation, American med students can see debt up to four times that much though.

I'd certainly be very wary of embarking on studies at a less prestigious medical school in the UK, as in the US. They're not all much of a muchness.

The introduction this last academic year of the UKMLA should make it more clear which British medical schools are producing the best doctors.

Once this exam produces sufficient data, it will be possible to see how UK med school grads stack up against each other, and may give answers to some of the questions raised on this thread.

IMGs will also be required to take the MLA alongside the current PLAB exam, afaik. This will yield interesting data too, no doubt.

‘Best’ doctors, or best at passing exams ? There is a huge difference in being a fantastic doctor and scoring in a test. Yes you need to pass but there is so much more to the job.

Absolutely

Well yes. But it doesn't have to be either/ or.

Ideally you'd have a doctor whose medical education was extremely rigorous, who could prove his or her academic excellence, and who also possessed the human skills needed.

A doctor needs to know what he or she is looking at or what a patient is describing, above all else. If they can't do that because their education is lacking rigor, they are not actually much use to people who need medical treatment.

@mathanxiety well yes, that’s why they have ARCP every year

@mathanxiety Are you taking a pop at UK medical education? If so why? So which country produce the best medical graduates in your opinion?

@PurpleFairyLights not sure they know about the annual need to provide portfolio of evidence and feedback just to continue working. No doctor can work if they can’t reach competencies every year. And do expensive exams. While working long shifts. For 22% less pay than 8 years ago.

20,000 unemployed doctors this August, including IMGs. Nothing to do with competency.

Completely agree.

I am wondering what the end game is of the posters that seem to be questioning the quality of UK medical education?

Also unemployed IMGs may possibly have visa problems without job.