Junior Doctors Unemployment in August part 2

[PurpleFairyLights]

Following on from previous thread.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5337022-junior-doctors-unemployment-in-august?utm_campaign=thread&utm_medium=share

@wannabewitch do you think a doctor today is worth 22% less than a doctor 10 years ago ? Yes or no.

Meanwhile. I suppose they aren’t going to earn much later in their careers so they should get more now. Oh wait …..

They are not worth 22% less but the figures being quoted and the indices that the BMA are using are skewed. The whole argument of RPI versus CPI is highly relevant.
As quoted by the Nuffield Trust :Our analysis shows how calculations on changes in pay over time are sensitive to the inflation measure chosen (CPI or RPI) and the baseline year. Of course, real-terms pay is just one measure and should not, on its own, be used to conclude whether pay is fair and appropriate.

Other sectors have had pay cuts in real terms aswell, not as much but if you equalise one then equity says you equalise all - the country can not afford it, so some sense of realism has to come in.

This chat is more realistic and independent.
https://www.nuffieldtrust.org.uk/news-item/resident-doctor-pay-how-do-different-methods-affect-how-pay-changes-appear

Your inverse snobbery knows no bounds - you have been questioning if I was a doctor, so I put a few qualifications of mine down. Irrelevant to where they come from.
There has always been a hierarchy of educational institutions - ivy league, oxbridge ,red brick, new uniiversities, ex polys - the same exists in medicine that is the reality

my narrow social strata had a mother as a nurse and a medically disabled father who did not work atter I was 12, is that "posh and privileged" enough for you. She put three children through university -2 of whom had to pay fees - that included me

I applaud you for raising awareness of the issues in medical employment - I do not agree with some of your conclusions or your need to blame other AHPS, IMGs, older doctors etc.
However, the two of you just lost all credibility when belittled someone for a degree they earned and paid for and made erroneous assumptions about their back ground in such a derogatory way.

@PurpleFairyLights seriously, you need to stop this now. So much of what you say is rubbish and when anyone who holds a different opinion tries to explain anything you are relentlessly horrible.
In particular you seem to hate senior doctors (you pretend to doubt their credentials) and the least said about your attitude to any non British person the better.
You say you are worried about your children, but they are adults with university degrees. If they can't get the job they want they will have to do something else. Being worried is absolutely not an excuse for hitting out at anyone who you perceive as doing better than your offspring.
And please don't tell us yet again that they have student debt. All graduates do. Didn't you know that?

@oddandelsewhere ignorance knows no bounds. Please expand on what is rubbish ? Still waiting for those Unis that produce all the ‘best’ doctors ???

@wannabewitch your sneering at my students ‘who are those that would get into those more useless Unis’ (paraphrase) shows exactly who you are.
If you do not understand the ‘you only need one offer’ phrase then you really don’t understand admissions at all. If you are a doctor please reflect on your total lack of empathy and patronising behaviour. Not a good look.

This. Thankfully there are good senior doctors out there.

I’m bemused at the multiple straw man arguments here. What exactly is it about prioritising UK doctors that people find so objectionable? Not “guaranteeing” every FY2 a training slot, but prioritising the citizens/grads of the uk for positions that they are qualified for?

mumsneedwine - at no point have I ever sneered at anyone from any university or belittled any qualifications, and never would - I have left that to you and Purple.

I think it was one of you who popularised the phrase - the unpopular deaneries.

I did not brag about qualifications but you and purple were determined to paint me as not a doctor. You are insistent that us "older" doctors had it easy, do not understand - never had to work and study, never had to study for more qualifications we had it easy - no one in Medicine ever has it easy. When you finish medical school there is a slow dawning that you know a lot , but not a lot and the true learning of the art of medicine has only just begun. Medicine is life long learning and so it should be - it never stops.

"your sneering at my students ‘who are those that would get into those more useless Unis’ (paraphrase) shows exactly who you are". - not words I have ever used or would ever consider using.
I probably understand where many of your students come from better than you - I worked every weekend and holiday, I was at medical school until the final 6 months - bar work, care assistant, porter, lab tech. Anything to make my Mothers life easier. I owe that woman everything - my life, my career, my sanity, my work ethic and so much more i can not articulate.
If you do not understand the ‘you only need one offer’ phrase then you really don’t understand admissions at all. " - yes I do - I got one offer!

I disagree that all those who enter medical school and survive should be guaranteed a training job or any job to be honest simply because they have student debt and are doctors. That breeds complacency and ultimately lowers standards. Medicine is a dog eat dog world, fight for what you want - like I hope you will fight for your patients - be that as a GP, surgeon, physician etc

It's impossible to compare the North American and UK training systems as they work so differently, but USA and Canada prioritise their graduates (there's some complications next year as Canadian graduates will now be considered IMGs in the USA and vice versa) and there's still plenty of IMGs. And not all domestic graduates match into residency. There aren't guarantees. (The US is currently not funding sufficient residency slots, but that's another story.) IMGs have difficulty matching into the most competitive specialties.

The problem is undoubtedly more complicated than simply blaming IMGs for taking all the slots. My own doctor and my child's specialist paediatrician both trained in India before coming here and they are excellent.

@mumsneedwine I think it was me that you were paraphrasing. You should not do that, each time you do you twist the truth. I've asked you before to stop. I wasn't sneering at anyone. You think that you are stating facts. Many of them are only your facts. Here are some actual facts.

1. It's easy to find out which are the best medical schools. Look at the Times Higher Education list of best medical schools 2025. The ones at the top are outstanding, the ones in the middle good and the ones at the bottom not so much. Look at their scores for research, that's the best measure.

1. When there were very few medical schools it didn't matter which one you went to because they were all the same very high standard. Now with a proliferation of medical schools some are easier to get in to than others. I know it's not one of your truths, but prior attainment affects outcomes.

1. All a medical education promises is a degree and 2 years employment. This has always been the case. There was less unemployment amongst junior doctors when there were only half as many of them.

1. It's hard to fail a medical degree. But once they are out in the world sitting competitive exams along with every other junior doctor the ones from universities which are light on science and have less traditional teaching do worse. It's only natural that the ones who are statistically more likely to succeed in medicine get the training posts.

1. I don't think that your sense of entitlement or your tiresome offensiveness will get one more job. Your children are adults, they need to learn to navigate the system the way it is, improve their CV and apply for everything going. Also accept that they may not end up with a medical career.

1. Please don't tell me that every medical student is clever. They may be, but some are cleverer than others. The ones at the top medical schools will have far exceeded the minimum entry requirements.

If you want to be rude to me please quote me directly, your paraphrasing skills are very poor. Oddly you always seem to make me say something which I definitely did not.
And lay off @wannabewitch . She sounds like an example of the right way to go about having a very successful career. Having your pushy mum trying to get you a job isn't quite the same.

The data on prior attainment and outcomes was provided by Marchesman on your previous thread. You should read it.

Thank you oddandelsewhere!
Stupid thing is I have never considered myself to have been disadvantaged until this thread - not my background, slightly unconventional upbringing, education, gender, colour, religion, did not even do all science A levels!

I wanted to go to medical school, I researched it, found those medical schools that would consider something off the usual track and applied. Worked hard, passed exams - did not have a teacher for one subject for 2 terms -so myself and 2 others who all wanted to do medicine -sat in the library and taught ourselves, got the grades and started medicine.
No one ever told me I was disadvantaged - but when I read and listen to all the factors people say make it harder now - it has made me think, how may more resources are now available for people like me to succeed and that is a good thing.

I wanted something and maximised my chances of making it happen and it did - not through connections, privilege etc. When people in positions of leadership and mentoring, come onto a forum to debate an important issue but refuse to listen to other views that the solutions they want are not necessarily the ones ,that will ensure rising standards in health care or that there are alternatives you have to question the evidence they are presenting.

Mothers are wonderful things but they do have a slight tendency to lose focus when it affects their ow offspring.

I remember a case years ago where a straight A student tried to sue a university for not accepting them onto the medicine course. But I have amazing academic grades he (and his parents) whined. There’s more to being a dr than getting into the right medical school and getting top grades.

@wannabewitchdo you acknowledge the outlook for a medical graduate in 2025 is vastly different from 20 years ago? A doctor used to have a job for life (I am talking about any medical job - not speciality training in a particular field). It is not the case today. I do not recall hearing about unemployment in doctors in the level it is at today. This is due to poor workforce planning by our government and I am unsure where it will end up. There is also a mass exodus of doctors today- the last time I saw this was around 2010/2011 when there was huge difficulties getting into specialty training but I can’t recall why. But what is happening today is unprecedented. Surely you acknowledge this?

Your post is not relevant as this is not a thread about admission to medical school. It is about doctors that have done a medical degree and passed.

Someone was saying that some medical schools are better than others. I’m making the point that just because someone has gone to the best medical school and has the best grades doesn’t mean they’d make the best doctor. Someone who just scraped into the worst medical school could have far more useful non-academic skills (empathy etc) and therefore are a better candidate.

@Sommertidenhejhej honestly, how many people do you think get cured by empathy?

A lot.

An empathetic doctor will have far more success in elliciting a good history to help with diagnosis.

An academic supernova with zero people skills would not. People already vulnerable when feeling unwell/feeling something is wrong.

Why do you think UK medical schools spend a lot of time on patient centred approach? For example ICE (ideas, concerns, expectations) etc

@PurpleFairyLights hard for you to grasp I know, but academic supernovas can also have excellent people skills. There's no point taking the best history in the world If you can't follow it with an accurate diagnosis. If it's OK for you to say that very clever people can't be empathetic is it alright for me to say that empathetic people can't be clever? Thought not.

I don't only think, I know, that UK medical schools spend a lot of time on patient centred approach because it is a very cheap way of teaching.
10 years ago when my husband was last teaching while working as a consultant he was paid £200 per year, yes per year to teach one bedside session a week for 5 students. Multiply that by 10 for the full week taught by him and the other consultants and it would cost £400 per year to teach each of the five students.

Compare that to the cost of anatomists,physiologists,biochemists, pathologists, cardiologists and pharmacists plus all the associated labs and equipment and bodies used in traditional teaching. Aside from the financial saving all of those allied professionals are freed up to do research which improves the University's overall score, as does the student satisfaction. Students prefer the easier option of being empathetic.

😂😂 oh it’s really turned now. Doctors with no empathy. Explains so so much about the current mess.

They’ll never acknowledge they are wrong. Or maybe just misinformed. Thank you for supporting the resident doctors.

@oddandelsewhere you very obviously have no knowledge at all about Med School
admissions. Lost me at using league tables 😂. And I happen to think anyone who can get AAA at A levels is pretty academic.

You sneer at my students going to ‘those’ Unis (we sent 11 to Oxbridge for medicine last year 😂). Again, snobby elitist attitude.

Love the way I have to ‘lay off’ your friend, when you think you’re entitled to attack anyone who disagrees with you. Lack of awareness again 😂

It’s good we’ve touched a nerve as some people are getting v v defensive (& abusive). Always means we are spreading the truth.