Junior Doctors Unemployment in August part 2

[PurpleFairyLights]

Following on from previous thread.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5337022-junior-doctors-unemployment-in-august?utm_campaign=thread&utm_medium=share

I hope you prioritise training your doctors and not your PAs. Be a good boss not a ladder puller - there are many many of those.

And comments are not derogatory if they are true. What is the point of the Leng review if there are not problems ? Why are AU taking the GMC to court if all is rosey. Your ward might be a nice place to work but for many doctors that’s not the case.

And I have never said IMGs are not great doctors (although many in here have said UK ones are a bit lazy and bit shit), but getting PLAB is easier if not working in the NHS. That’s not rude, it’s a fact. We have enough of our own trained doctors (IMGs already here included) so why are we importing so many ?

Medical school places are capped to mean there are enough jobs for everyone. But this has gone v v wrong.

And just because I disagree with you it doesn’t make me rude. I am angry, I want doctors to have a job. Any job. I am angry that a PA earns 50% more than an F1 - why bother becoming a doctor ? It’s madness.

@Ukisgaslit but many senior doctors can’t see it - as is v clearly being shown right here. Sad.

@wannabewitch

This is my second thread not third. This thread about specialty training posts mostly but widened to lack of jobs outside of specialty training.

How did you manage to help doctors get jobs in last 6 months and what type of jobs? Please explain and give examples?

You could not have helped young doctors in the last 6 months with specialty training places apart from being their referee.. This is because Oriel is a national system that closed in November 2024.

PAs in a hospital ( not GP land) are Band 7 starting pay £46418 for a job that requires a post graduate qualification.
FY1s in a hospital earn a basic of £36616 with a 37% premium for unsocial hours and a weekend on call supplement for a job which requires an undergraduate degree

No one has said there are not problems but the vitriol you direct at innocent allied professions is unreasonable- why not advance nurse practitioners, advance physiotherapists, endoscopists who are all taking training opportunities.

With the best will in the world that is not 50% more.

Helping people get jobs comes in many forms - interview practice, advice on portfolios, highlighting where jobs are coming up which might suit. Counselling those who messed up their interviews/portfolios etc and are honest enough to admit it.
Also some residents realise they want to experience other bits of medicine before getting specialist training - directing them to the inferior trust grade jobs you do not think UK graduates should have to do is also helping them train, develop and experience new things in the world of health care.

Please give exact date and time and user who said UK graduates should not have to do "inferior" trust grade jobs? I have not seen that post.

Yet again derailing thread. This is a post about doctors who do 5 years training (not 2 years (PAs) or nurses (3 years) not any other allied health care professionals. They will need to start their own threads.

Me thinks someone has been training PAs and not their doctor colleagues. Ladder pulling at its finest. Postgraduate ? Yup. Do a degree in nutrition then 18 months learning that famous medical model and whoosh, you’re on the Reg rota. Sensible PAs know they are not doctors but many want to play at being one. Just look at their posts on social media.

PA start on £47,810 and F1 on £36,616. One has studied medicine and can prescribe. One hasn’t and can’t. That’s 31% more

Next year PA can be on £55,890 and F2 £42,008 so 33% more. But PAs are paid for 40 hours and doctors 48. PAs don’t work out of hours or nights in most places.

A doctor will not out earn a PA until 5 years (minimum) out of medical school.

GMC say doctors need to ‘take up references to understand the competency of each PA’. Should make that 2am bleep interesting meeting someone!

It’s sad that a supposed consultant does not see the issues for their residents. But that’s how we ended up in this mess.

And every doctor I know would love a trust trade job right now. Shame there aren’t many (5 on Friday).

Exactly and will have around 400 applications.

Just because you qualified as a doctor does not mean you should earn more than other allied health professionals with post graduate qualifications. That is disrespectful of the knowledge and skills that many part of the nhs workforce have and that teach many young doctors skills they need. FY1 pay is on a par with top Band 5 nurse ( min 5 yrs experience - lower end Band 6) I know who I want working along side on August 3rd. I want the Band 5, whilst I teach the FY1 and no - they are not the equivalent to the Band 5 nurse or an experienced PA when they start. Different but all will be equally valuable to the NHS.

That you rubbish anyone with a nutrition degree is symptomatic of your ignorance/arrogance of what makes the health service tick.

I get the situation - having sorted out a resident today with employment for the next 6 months. What I can not abide is your belief that every doctor deserves a specialist training post - much of your previous threads were about this - 12000 UK grads should get the 12000 jobs and all the shitty Trust grade jobs can be taken up by IMGS who have been integral to delivering health care to this nation for generations. These trust grade jobs were beneath UK grads.
Now you want all the IMGS to pass more exams, bugger off and make way for a UK grads.in those inferior Trust grade jobs.

You make such sweeping statements - many of which are simply wrong. You disrespect any opinion that does not conform with yours and your narrative.

I am a doctor, -although you spent much of the last thread saying I was not - MB BChir MSc x2, 2 post grad diplomas an MD says otherwise, I have been through the system, been spat at out different times because a new training regime came in, faced unemployment, been unemployed. worked out of the nhs, but what I do not agree with is that every UK medical graduate has a god given right to a job simply because they are UK doctors. Guaranteed jobs and no competition breeds complacency and ultimately lowers standards.

This was clearly evidenced by those who got run through training (that debacle affected me badly) those with run through made less effort and had less on their CVs at the end of the day because they did not need to try.

Unemployment is not good for anyone in any job be that bin man, dock worker, cleaner, cook, nurse, physio, doctor, lawyer. Doctors are another cog in the wheel of healthcare - not better, not superior but another vital cog in the system.

@wannabewitch

Your point comparing the qualifications of drs v PAs is risible

Drs need to have the highest grades in gcse and A level then compete via UKCAT and interview to even gain a place on a 5 year medical course.
And you are setting PA s above this because they may have a ( v loosely ) related science 3 year standard degree ?
Nonsense

I also do not understand why you would equate a nurse and an F1 . Their roles and responsibilities are very different

So only doctors get high grades at GCSE and A levels? Different people choose different careers for what floats their boat - not everyone wants to be a doctor and many got top grades.
Amazingly many other courses outside medicine have a competitive process aswell - oh and they interview aswell!

In the NHS Agenda for change compared like for like jobs with regard to qualifications , experience, responsibility. Whilst doctors pay is not included in it - anyone who compares the two can see where different grades of doctor are on equivalent salaries to equivalent equally qualified and experienced allied health care professionals. Although, that a Band 7 ward manager is paid so little is an insult to the levels of responsibility and training that they have and need and they do significantly more than an ST3.

FY1 starting pay is about £5k more than a band 5 nurse starting pay - both need training, nurturing and developing with differing levels of training and responsibility. So yes they are comparable

Anyone who has worked on a ward in August, would know why you can equate a nurse to an FY1. Many of us who know thank god for those Band D/E, Band 5/6 nurses who helped guided and taught us so much we did not know. That you write with such derision shows your ignorance

Sorry the arrogance that all doctors are better qualified and reached a higher standard than others in the allied medical professions is quite sad.

My point being that F1s are often left alone on a ward at night / dropped in and expected to hit the ground running . That F1 baptism of fire is solely an ordeal for a dr to endure

A nurse does not carry such a degree of responsibility. The comparison is void .

And a PA who is aware of the limitations of their role is an asset to a dr in theory . Unfortunately they don’t do nights or longs do they ?

A F1 is not left as the sole person in charge with no back -there is invariably and FY2/CT doctor aswell and an SPR.

in what world @wannabewitch? I know v many F1s who have been left alone many times to deal
with quite tough things. Because staffing was so low. Shouldn’t happen, but does. And a PA has to legally be supervised by a doctor so should never be left alone ! Ever.

Some people like PAs. Ladder pulling consultants are a disgrace as far as I’m concerned. And yes, I mean to be rude. To senior doctors who can’t be bothered to do their job and train the resident doctors. Some say it’s because they can then hold on to their private work with no competition 🤷‍♀️

If everyone else can upskill to become a doctor, what’s the point of Medical school ? Could just leave school and become a HCA and work your way up on the job. If that’s an option now it would save the £100,000 of debt (which older doctors don’t have). No rotational training too.

PS nurses are awesome. They just do a different job so not sure why they are being compared ?

Im not sure where you are practising at the moment but F1s are often the only dr on the ward at night
Yes it’s against ‘guidelines’ but it happens

Nurses are great but they do not take the responsibility doctors do.

Again trying to derail a thread about doctors.
Why do you do this?

Why are you trying to talk down doctors and the responsibility they have at work?

Whenever things get serious the doctor gets informed. There is no way you can be a doctor and so ignorant at the levels of responsibility within a hospital.

You come across as disliking doctors. I suspect you are not a doctor but work with them.

Mmmm

Again, for the very hard or understanding

The current situation for young doctors is definitely difficult.
However to suggest it’s the fault of previous cohorts is ridiculous, to suggest the young aren’t being trained so the consultants can continue privately is simply ludicrous!
There are many people on these threads who are just angry, due to personal circumstances (children who are young doctors etc…)
Its the government that needs to see and understand what’s truly happening, not the individuals ( whether doctors, pa’s or other allied health professionals)

I am not derailing the thread but i am calling out your derogatory comments about IMGS, PAs, older doctors, about anyone who you perceive is not as worthy as a resident doctor and that doctors are on pedestals in terms of jobs, knowledge and pay. I am also trying to get you to appreciate that within health care there ae different jobs that require skill, knowledge and responsibility - the biomedical scientist with 20 yrs experience a bachelors, masters, often a PhD who oversees all blood transfusion requests, ensures they are correct and done safely gets paid Band 6/7 - that job is equivalent in responsibility on a daily basis as an FY1 - i jsut recognise that and respect their role and decry the piss poor level of pay.

From other threads:
"The difference is that in the past, doctors could take a second best (to them) option" ie non training job
"Trust grade jobs are being targeted by IMGs too"

The ability to have higher specialist training should not be a right - which many on this thread believe. Posters have said that many residents did not bother applying - if you do not bother to apply then how do you know you will not get a job.
I do not want to see lots of doctors unemployed and the system does need some changes but I absolutely do not agree with a right to training and minimal competition - which is want many on here are advocating.

We fundamentally disagree - which is fine - I just seen to put my point across without calling people cheats, pseudo etc, dangerous etc