Junior Doctors Unemployment in August part 2

[PurpleFairyLights]

Following on from previous thread.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5337022-junior-doctors-unemployment-in-august?utm_campaign=thread&utm_medium=share

And what do the get 10 years post qualification? And what do they get when they’ve retired? Will they take a defined contribution pension in exchange for a 20% pay rise? I know lots of doctors don’t know any that find pay remotely an issue.

I was at a recent dinner party with some none medics ans two medics who were IMG’s whose British educated DC just secured a training post af his second attempt. When they came to UK they were accepting of the fact UK graduates would be considered for a role ahead of them. Our non doctor friends (including my DH) thought doctors have had an easy ride for so many years having a guaranteed job and now they are faced with the same competition all other graduates do. This is a fair point actually. A lot of graduates fail to get into a graduate programme- why do docs need to be considered differently?
I didn’t have an answer hence asking here. One solution given was UK graduates can train abroad and become a UK consultant through CESR route

@Sommertidenhejhej currently 2 years post graduation ? You get unemployment

And they pay into their pensions, up to 13.5%. They are not free ! Retirement at 68. What other job offers shit pay now so one day you can get some pension (nothing like you’re predecessors who have pulled that ladder up too).

@Truetoself no they can’t. UK graduates only get jobs non local graduates don’t want - we are the only country that doesn’t prioritise their own staff. And it’s v expensive so only open to rich doctors.

Any other job has a choice of employers so can apply to lots, doctors have one.

Still no word on those amazingly better medical schools ?

Places at med school are capped by the government in order to ensure there are foundation and subsequent jobs for them (not all training, but SHO type jobs or SAS). But now anyone from anywhere in the world can apply there are no longer enough jobs for uk trained staff, who cost the tax payer money to train.

Lovely to hear more older doctors, who qualified with no debt and a wage that meant they’d afford a house one day, not understanding the problems

20,000 doctors anticipated to be without a job in 6 weeks. Not 2, not 1,000. What an utter waste.

Yes and that’s an issue, it’s an issue the public can really get behind if they want to see a successful NHS with long term UK staff. Doctor’s wages are not.

Why ? Do you really believe doctors are worth 22% less than 10 years ago ? Do you believe a doctor, holding the cardiac bleep on Xmas day deserves to be paid £17 an hour ? The cleaners earn £20+ (& are just as valuable). Do you believe they deserve 30% less than a PA who has to be supervised and can’t prescribe ? Currently in every hospital at this moment there are F2s earning the princely sum of £19 an hour who are the doctor you will likely first see. All with £100,000+ of debt.

But means nothing if they don’t have a job, which is what this thread is about.

What they might earn in 10 years time is irrelevant when you're in your mid 20's, have £89k of student debt before you've even graduated (my d got minimum student finance and that was her loan balance a month before the end of her course), need to move to wherever if you've been lucky enough to get a job. Landlords and tescos and bus/train companies don't take IOUs. And not all London students have rich families. Mine tutored throughout med school and I went back to my former nhs job, taking night shifts to help put her through.

I think what grinds people's gears about PAs is that many were failed med school applicants, went through the PA route, and now give junior doctors 'attitude' on the wards. I know not all, but my d has seen it multiple times. Leaving the F1/2 a list of jobs while they go off to theatre or clinic, making smart comments when they knock off at 5 or for Christmas, PAs teaching assessing and interviewing doctors, being told to teach something to the med student then just carrying on and shoving the student in the corner. And the social media stuff. I'm not saying that resident doctors are above doing the ward jobs, but that being handed a list of jobs and never getting into theatre or clinic surely defeats the object of what the PA role is for?

@mumsneedwine Don't put words in my mouth. I did not say that any University was rubbish, simply that students taught by PLB have many worse outcomes later. That is a fact, research has been published and it was linked to on your previous thread.
Don't try to tell me to respond to your assertions. I'll respond as and when I feel like it.
I think you know very well which medical schools are non traditional. They're the ones you probably have most success getting your pupils into, you know the ones where the people who only have one offer get their one offer.
I did laugh at your idea that students wouldn't go to Oxford because it is 'too old fashioned'. Most students would move heaven and earth to go there. Too difficult to get in to would be nearer the mark.

And another fact which you may find unpalatable is that exams are important. To progress they will have to become members of the Royal College in their speciality.

@mumsneedwinewell if UK graduates are not prioritised in UK anyway then they could cast their nest wider ………

To the other senior doctors on here - whilst it is true that getting into speciality training of your choosing was always competitive, to be unemployed as a junior doc (or resident doc they are called now) was unusual as there was always some kind of work available - either stand alone post or locum. The current Doctor unemployment crisis is unprecedented and if you don’t see that, I don’t know how you are in touch as you say you are.

As long as you get outcome 6 at ARCP you are a good doctor" - I seriously hope this was tongue i cheek because this could not be further from the truth.

@Truetoself wiser how ? No other jobs in NHS and they can only get the jobs left over in other countries. Not everyone can afford the £6,000 visa. And might have a partner who can’t work abroad. So not that simple

Can we be clear that there are not 20000 uk graduates going to be unemployed in 6 weeks time.

@wannabewitch go on then, I’ll bite. What makes a good doctor to you ? Because you don’t seem to like them very much.

@Truetoself and thank you. Senior doctors who acknowledge the problem will help make it better. Ladder pulling ones will make it worse.

Anyone seen the Derriford email today ? Trying to force resident doctors to sign prescriptions for their PA without seeing the patient. I believe a revolt is underway ….

@TheFancyDuck you see that’s where you are very out of touch. Most students avoid Oxbridge for medicine as so old fashioned with no early patient contact. Ratios prove this.

So again, what are these amazing Unis who are so superior ? And you said non trad ones produced inferior doctors so not sure how I’ve put words I your mouth.

@TheFancyDuck PS I send lots to Oxbridge every year. Because it’s cheaper, and they do great outreach for WP students. But good to know that you sneer at such students - says it all.

Again, what Unis are best. Because I’m sure the GMC would like to close the useless ones.

And exams are important. No one has ever said they aren’t, but you pass them and move on. No one cares what you score. But the ‘best’ doctors are so much more than a few letters after their name.

I would like to know too but suspect their posts are hinting that non-UK medical schools are better.

@wannabewitch well that’s so good to know. Phew, there was I thinking the BMA and actual unemployed doctors knew better. So not 20,000 doctors unemployed. I mean, there’s already 2,000 GPs without jobs but that’s probably all going to be ok too. Great news !

Do you think it is OK that a consultant with 8 yrs experience, 14 years training is paid circa £60 per hour ?
We can have this argument for ever.

Blame Aneurin Bevan who set up the NHS, he asked a senior doctor what he thought drs should be paid and the guy came up with a figure. As he left Bevan was heard to say - I would have paid three times that. From that down playing of value - doctors pay and value has been set.

@PurpleFairyLights well of course. UK doctors are all lazy and stupid. 😂

I always love people who think everyone wants to go Oxbridge - they tend to come from a v narrow social strata.