Junior Doctors Unemployment in August part 2

[PurpleFairyLights]

Following on from previous thread.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5337022-junior-doctors-unemployment-in-august?utm_campaign=thread&utm_medium=share

@Sevillian

This thread is hilarious. You've got Mumsneedwine saying "Why are they so invested ? Not a doctor. Not a ‘mummie’ of a doctor. V strange to care quite so much" and posting eleven times on this page - so far; and Fairylights insistence that juniors are "ready to progress" even if it requires that nationality trumps merit.

One of my favourites, is the 12000 graduates and 13000 jobs thing which is as you say repeated ad nauseam. Firstly, one or both of them seem oblivious to the fact that there is more than one round of jobs included in those numbers; and secondly for graduates in other fields the applicant to job ratio is 140:1.

But I also like the whole empathy/bedside manner beats ability to pass exams/research, and all graduates are awesome, vibe.

@Annoyeddd hard and competitive is fine, and if didn’t get training yours could have got a locum job or JCF. Now, you need everything on the list to even get an interview, and even that’s not always enough. And now if don’t get training you don’t get a job, locums rare and v v few F3 type roles. Out of interest, how many of your DCs cohort were unemployed after F2 ?

@Marchesman Are you unaware that in any other type of job there is more than one employer ? Good try, but you can’t seem to read v well. 12,000 graduates for 13,000 jobs is planned. It’s why medicine is the only degree with a cap on places. Surely you know that ??

@Marchesman I’m invested as I help recruit doctors every year. Why are you and Seville still here? What’s your vested interest ?

Is this another pop at me?

My d doesn't have a placeholder F1 job but has friends in this situation, one has just found out that even their allocated deanery might not happen. She/we are very aware that her position is due to sheer luck in the random number generator, not any form of superiority.

I'm trying to work out whether your biggest issue is with IMGs or your reverse snobbery towards unis whose grads you seem to perceive as having academic kudos but poor people skills and superior attitudes who will make inferior doctors to your own uniquely hardworking offspring.

I still think that UKMGs should get priority for training posts. It's encouraging that there seems to be progress in this direction, but at what cost?

There are also the UK students who have studied overseas and are looking to come back to the UK for either F1 or specialty training. And the very many overseas students who graduate from UK med schools but whose family home/funding source is overseas. It's much more complicated than just a blanket rule.

It really is hilarious Marchesman. Similar to one of the many school plays I used to have to sit through where one or two unreasonably confident actors would push themselves to the front and sing much louder than everyone else, but not in a talented way.

I love the recent introduction of meerkats. My absolute number one favourite animal. I wish meerkats could be consultants. Perhaps that's the next step - very smart little creatures.

But even the idea that one has to have a vested interest to have any sort of political view is so incredibly narrow.

One recent almost laugh out loud moment was mumsneedwine telling us that she'd written to 'Wes' to tell him that she spends her working life getting working class students into medical school 😂So absurd, on so many levels 😂But very funny and very revealing.

.

As a baseline for this thread pre-2021 not one was out of work - a couple went to Australia but that was because they chose to as wanted to travel while they had chance but plans changed because of COVID, some went straight into specialist or core training others did a year JCF/locum again by choice to see if that was really what they wanted to do but then got the training posts.
Those who had to apply for higher training found it a bit more competitive than core training and some have had to reapply and have been successful but at that level there is more clinical fellow/locum work available and a couple are qualified enough to work in industry or research
As I said in my original post it was not impossible to find something appropriate.

Graduates in non- medical fields may have greater competition for jobs but they do have a wider range of jobs to apply for.

@HostessTrolley why would you think it was a pop at you ? Unless your child is like that - I hope not. Someone mentioned arrogant graduates who think they are better because of the Uni they went too. They are in for a v rude shock as no one cares.

WE ARE THE ONLY COUNTRY WHO DO NOT GIVE PRIORITY TO OUR OWN STAFF. This is not cost efficient.

@Annoyeddd thank you. I was just interested if unemployment had happened before.

@HostessTrolley any international student who graduates from a UK Uni is a UKG. It’s not where you come from, it’s where you train.

@HostessTrolley no reverse snobbery. I just don’t believe there is a higherachy of Unis. There are good (& bad) doctors from all of them. Please leave my child out of it - she is happily in training. I’m fighting on behalf of others.

You were the one that mentioned the medical school your daughter went to. Why did you do that? Nobody else has. It comes across that you think your daughter is just that bit better than graduates from other medical schools and your post going on about academic kudos of Imperial cements my view.

Overseas students that graduate from UK medical schools will be seen as UKMGs and will be given priority.

When my DC was allocated F1 deanery it went on merit depending on how well had performed during medical school. All medical students got ranked and based on that either got the deanery of their choice or not. DC got first choice deanery which was very competitive. When DC applied for specialty training got a surgical training post in a competitive deanery. During those two years DC passed both surgical exams first time and was assessed as ready to progress to higher surgical training but because of 20,000 IMG applications last year the ratio to get into higher surgical specialty training has become ridiculous.

Pre 2021 the system worked. We want priority for UKMGs to protect our medical graduates like every other country in the world.

Absolutely.

The old system worked. It was competitive and no-one was rubber stamped through.

A joker on here suggested in either this thread or the one before that our UK graduates should get a PhD to increase their chances of getting into specialty training while ignoring the fact that 20,000 IMG applications had caused the problem.

Also our young doctors mainly competed on a level playing field pre 2021,against each other of similar grade and experience give or take. But now they are competing with IMGs that have been doctors for a longer time. Then there is PLAB and CREST forms in the mix...

Strictly speaking, "not one" is correct.

When subsequently questioned, of the 2016 cohort of 6736 doctors who finished F2, 707 were out of work (10.5%), and 923 not practising medicine (13.7%). Overall, 50% of F2s did not directly enter speciality training.

As for competition ratios, it doesn't matter how many jobs there are, that is the point of ratios and 140:1 is for graduate jobs overall. Furthermore, there is a wide range of jobs within medicine, some of which have competition ratios <1.

Any way you cut it, despite its relatively uncompetitive entry, medicine has one of the best employment prospects and earnings.

I was answering @mumsneedwine question about my DC cohort (well the wider group of friends).
Maybe their choice of speciality was less popular - a couple chose less popular deaneries so they were ranked fairly high within that deanery all had the intercalated bsc.
However DC says amongst their friends they have FY2's in their teams who will be unemployed next month.
The advantage over other graduates is that they have two years employment under their belts so can claim job seekers rather than universal credit

That is so sad. Hopefully next round of specialty training applications it will be UKMGs first priority and then IMGs.

So sad (and unimpressive) that the first port of call for these well educated young people is the benefit system when they’ve had fair warning (six months) that they’ll need a job come August. That’s plenty of time to get a job, even in hospitality (crying out for staff), while they apply for jobs that they’d prefer.

😂😂😂 again we ask, what is your interest ? Why are you so invested ?

UKGs will be prioritised. Great isn’t it 🥂

Ask away mumsneedwine.

Given that so many posters disbelieve the credentials that are posted by others there really is no point declaring my hand, nor am I under any obligation to do so. I'll just roll with the finger pointing about being foreign 😂

(I mean, when even the OP says she refuses to say what her professional standing is but tries to hint very strongly that she's a doctor (as well as being a strong woman and a mummie), even though she evidently isn't....)

I think we'll find much to commend in Wes Streeting's plan yes, on this single issue at least (others have already expressed concern about the overall feasibility of the huge shift he envisages to primary care).

Money money money. Must be funny, in a BAPIO world.

UKGs getting priority. The Greek chorus loves a good song 🎶

Good to see misogyny is alive and well on MN.

Absolutely brilliant news. I was hoping the last two jokers would drop off the thread so they could attempt to salvage some dignity but alas they carry on 😂

I was looking at what has been posted on another website. There were two journalists asking for more information.

I think the beginning of August may be interesting....

@PurpleFairyLights I’m at a WP conference on Saturday. It’s going to be interesting !!