Junior Doctors Unemployment in August part 2

[PurpleFairyLights]

Following on from previous thread.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5337022-junior-doctors-unemployment-in-august?utm_campaign=thread&utm_medium=share

This is a thread about doctor unemployment.

Why don't you start a thread about allied healthcare professionals?

Yet again you assume the posters on the two threads are all parents of doctors. You have never considered that some have experience of working in the NHS/are doctors.

Yes and many doctors have disagreed with you, but you automatically say they know nothing, their experience is in valid and call them liars.

No one wants to be unemployed that is not unique to doctors - but blaming this on any one who does not agree with you - PAs, IMGs, etc is not acceptable.

I am a doctor and am incredibly proud to be one - I like many, worked bloody hard to get where I am and where I am going in my career. It has not been and will continue not to be simple, straight forward - that has included job uncertainty, periods of unemployment, non training jobs, facing the reality that I was not cut out to be something and having to change direction - the adversity has shaped me and made me a better doctor and continues to make me a doctor as I reach the end of my training.
Advocating for every UK graduate to be guaranteed a training job, higher training and consultant job / GP job is fundamentally wrong and allows lower standards to develop. Competition is good and healthy, drives better standards and as a result better healthcare for patients.

Only 2-3 "doctors" have disagreed.

This is a fine example of ladder pulling if you are a doctor.

So you think that the 195 countries that protect their medical graduates are wrong?

That it is fair that the UK is the only country in the world that does not protect its medical graduates?

That the UK is the only country in the world that allows IMGs and their own grads to compete against each other with IMGs often having more of advantage in the portfolio system as they have been a doctor longer.

I wonder why you think that....

Why do you think that 59,698 applications for 12,743 training places in 2024 specialty training cycle (BMA figures)is fair?

Why do you think Wes Streeting said UK grads should take priority?

What is ladder pulling?

Where have I said UK graduates should not be prioritised - nowhere.

I have said they should not be guaranteed a job which many on here seem to think they have a god given right to - simply because they are doctors and studied long and hard. I disagree with your view point.

The EU said EU graduates first - did not stop other IMGS applying for jobs in the country. Some came took Trust jobs and got the training via a different harder route -as they had to make it up themselves. They progressed. Leaving the EU meant the UK changed its rules - it has flooded the market and now doctors are 10 a penny - can you not see why they did this or the plan 10 years down the line?

Some doctors just don’t like other doctors apparently. Sad but seems it’s v true.

Argue this ?

Or this

There are more "training" jobs than there has ever been and there are more "non training" jobs than there have ever been.
The ladder has not bee pulled by anyone
The change is the number of doctors being trained world wide who can apply fo both training and non training jobs

Does not matter as there were 60k applicants now for 12k training posts. There are so few trust grade jobs that they are attracting 500+ applications

EU prioritised EU grads and worldwide got the left overs. 195 countries do this except the UK

The ladder has been pulled by a lot of people. Why are PAs doing surgery, endoscopies, solo clinics etc when they are supposed to be there to help doctors. Why are doctors doing ward rounds while PAs are doing surgery ? Because consultants find it easier to train the non rotating staff ! But it’s their job. And they were trained by their consultants

So yes, lots of ladder pulling going on.

You are just going round in a bubble of people who agree with you. Some consultants might agree with you but many won't. You probably only listen to the ones who agree and tell the others they are not doctors.
You don't like the system the way it is and would like it to suit your offspring better. Repeating your so called remedy is tedious and frankly will probably get you nowhere.
The problem in a large part stems from being less selective at the point of entry to medical school. The selection is still happening but at the point where the graduates seek training. I think everyone would agree that many of them were sold an impossible dream.

The system was fine pre 2019. UK grads took priority above IMGs just like 195 other countries.

It is not about the number of UK medical school places/graduates that were always around 12,000 which balanced with around 12000 specialty training places.

The influx of IMGs post 2019 change has caused a massive bottleneck.

The British taxpayer will have wasted £250k x 20,000 unemployed doctors in August. That is at least 5 million wasted.

Stats

So ? People read this without commenting so it’s getting the facts out there. Don’t like it, don’t read it 🤷‍♀️

@TheFancyDuck that’s just bollocks snobbery. All medical schools need good A levels. The most ready for F1 every year according to consultants - UEA.

Ladder pulling at its finest

What is the advantage for the UK in not prioritising UK applicants? The advantage in prioritising them is surely that they are more likely to hang around and work in the NHS, so why invite international graduates to apply? Does it help fill our medical schools and help subsidise the cost of unis?

@Sommertidenhejhej not, it just means international doctors are reliant on their visas so less likely to strike. And put up with being treated badly. Costs the tax payer a fortune as lots of UK trained staff forced to move abroad for work,

And this. GMC make a lot of money from IMGs

@mumsneedwine it actually isn't snobby bollocks. I think it was Marchesman who explained to you on your previous thread that doctors from non traditional medical schools do worse at passing professional exams later in their career . As I recall the only thing they were better at was 'GP preparedness' which was self assesed.

As some newer medical schools don’t have many who have started taking professional exams I’d love to know how predicting the future has become a thing
And again, exams do not make you a good doctor. As long as you get outcome 6 at ARCP you are a good doctor

What is a ‘non traditional’ medical school ? One that uses PBL maybe - sure Manchester will love to know they are rubbish. Or one that requires an A star to get in - well done Plymouth.

Please explain what you mean. Or do you mean anything that’s not London (too expensive for most) or Oxbridge (too old fashioned for most),

Well they do need to stop striking. They seem very hurt that their wages haven’t kept up with inflation since 2008, failing to appreciate that NOBODIES wages haven’t kept. And yes junior drs wages did fare worse than almost any other profession in that regards but they have had HUGE rises in the past few years, their wages do get very high very quickly and their pensions are like one big Ponzi scheme that the rest of the UK taxpayers have to pay out on.

If they went on strike with regards to the availability of training contracts their would definitely have my sympathy. Striking on pay? No. Their strikes do seem very out of touch with the struggles that the rest of the UK are facing.

This. If you need it explaining just pray you never need the NHS to step up again. Work through a pandemic (while others were at home safe) and see your pay cut by 30% while doing it. They are not asking for a pay rise, but for their pay to be restored to where it was. But well done - are you Wes.

HUGE rise 😂 from £15 an hour to £17 !!! Woo hoo. A cup of coffee extra an hour.

Any answer on those ‘traditional medical schools’ that are so superior ?