To want to know what you're sick of about men !

[GingerPussInBoots]

OK, OK its not all men

But this comment on another thread ade me laugh so much and I seriously related, anything else you'd like to add?

I don't think you know what the term "incel" means.

We will always have violent people, both men and women, there's nothing that can be done about that. Natural selection 🙄, would take countless generations of gene manipulation or selective breeding, are you suggesting we as a society should treat woman as farm animals?

It would be quicker, and I think more appropriate, to change how we view masculinity. We need to stop using words like "toxic", even the title of this thread is somewhat appalling. Can you imagine the reaction if there were a thread on a prominent, well known mens forum that was titled

"to want to know what you're sick of about women"

You would probably label all the posters incels! 🙄

But it's fine because we're women, we don't have to take any responsibility for men's feelings or behaviour, funny that we expect them to take responsibility for ours though.

Why must we stop using terms like toxic? It's a very suitable prefix to denote an interpretation of masculinity that is harmful to both women and men. There seems to be a misconception that when we say toxic masculinity we mean that masculinity, ie, being male is toxic. This isn't and never was the meaning of the term. Toxic masculinity is simply a term that acknowledges that some of the stereotypes and expectations for men in our society, such as that they should be strong, aggressive, dominant etc, have resulted in behaviour that is problematic. Both for the women and men who are victims of those exhibiting its extremes, and for the men who do not match up to its requirements. Trying to stop the use of the term because you've misunderstood its meaning isn't helpful to women or men.

I don't expect men to take any responsibility for my feelings and behaviour whatsoever. I don't believe anyone on this thread has said that either, or implied it.

I expect men to take responsibility for their own behaviour. I also expect them to take responsibility for addressing misogyny by other men when they see it. Too many men are still unwilling to do either of these things.

Also your point about "can you imagine if men started a thread like this about women" has been made over and over on this thread and, as multiple posters have explained, they do!! All. The. Time. There are many, many online spaces dedicated to expressing misogynist views and it's is also very common for men to make degrading, derogatory and offensive statements about women on pretty much every mainstream social media platform.

The main provider is frequently more likely to be the woman these days, despite her carrying 90% of the domestic load.

What DO men bring to the table now?

Crumbs and ring marks from mugs because not one of them can use a fucking coaster.

Absolutely spot on

Don't mansplain and talk down to me. Particularly NOT on a woman's forum.

Incel = involuntary celibate. Men who can't breed because women reject them for their toxic masculinity.

It's not the women who should be farm animals. It's the men. No more semen samples from men who exhibit aggressive tendencies. Breed that trait out.

And the 'toxic' traits of masculinity are those that involve wanting to dominate women or other men, aggression, selfishness, the traits that contribute to rape culture. Those traits are poisonous. WHY THE HELL should women revisit how we see those traits? We don't want them in any men that are anywhere near us. No need to change the way we think about it. Men need to evolve beyond seeing those traits as desirable. Or else they become undesired.

Masculinity can have a positive side too of course. But yes, there is a lot of toxicity in masculinity. Don't like it? Stand against it. Your POV as a man towards other men will always trump the POV of women. Use your influence for the good and aid in helping to neutralise the toxicity.

You say that only a handful, a tiny percentage of men are predisposed to violence but the stats tell us different things.

1 in 4 women will be raped by a man in their lifetime.
25% of women is 8 million women

You say that it wouldn't take much at all for me to resort to violence. From this I take that you mean it wouldn't take much at all for women to resort to violence.

The stats don't back this statement up.

A large majority (95.9%) of the prison population are* *male.

69% of the female prison population have committed a non violent crime.

You really have no idea how to interpret statistics.

Your figures don't mean what you think they do.

So why don’t you counter them instead of just saying they’re wrong?

I haven't misjudged it's meaning. You and I might know what it means, but the vast majority of people don't interpret it that way, they understand it to mean a derogatory term to describe men. This has consequences, especially for young men who are growing up in a society which is largely hostile to them.

We should focus on the behaviours, not label the underlying characteristics of half the population as potentially toxic.

no more semen samples from men who exhibit aggressive tendencies

😂

Are you a man?

What strange wording . . .

One of the annoying things about women is their unwillingness to do any basic research before posting on mumsnet. In around 75% of households men are the main earner and regarding housework it's estimated women do 65% of that. Plus they don't even acknowledge all the traditional male jobs that men have to do so in general women get a great deal and should be more grateful.

Hahahahaha

Grateful? SURE. Cutting the grass once a month does not equate to cleaning the kitchen and cooking (as an example) daily.

By all means be selective with your data search. I have been. This is what I found.

About 91 % of women with children spend at least an hour per day on housework, compared with 30 % of men.

We're so grateful for what men do there is a male loneliness epidemic. While women are thriving. Evolve or stay single.

If you want to even be considered as sperm donors, you need to be better.

Please explain then

"About 91 % of women with children spend at least an hour per day on housework, compared with 30 % of men."

This doesn't mean that women are doing 90% of the housework. It is also the case that men on average work over an hour a day more than women hence they have less time for housework.

If women are thriving why are they constantly moaning about everything?

Because many of us are straight unfortunately

If you are one of the people who understands the meaning of the term, then you know that we are not labelling the underlying characteristic of half the population as potentially toxic. So we can hardly be expected to stop doing something we are not doing in the first place.
The term toxic masculinity is extremely useful. You want us to 'focus on behaviour', so do you not think part of that focus needs to be on an underlying cause of that behaviour? As if we don't identify cause, how can we hope to prevent? I believe ideas of what it means to be a man in our society are a significant factor in male problem behaviour. We need a way to name that and we have one. We call it toxic masculinity.
If that upsets men who misunderstand the term then that's unfortunate, but unlike you, I don't believe young men are growing up in a society that is hostile to them.
I believe their advantage and privilege comparative to women is still going strong, so I'm not going to worry unduly if they're offended because they don't understand the meaning of the words I use.

I think the 'moaning' tends to occur when men piggy back on women's ability to thrive independently, using it as a green light to do even less themselves. As women become increasingly successful in the traditionally male sphere, men need to equalise this by making a greater contribution in the traditionally female sphere. Unfortunately the traditionally female sphere tends to be seen as boring, beneath them (hence why it's been fobbed off onto women all this time). So rather than step up with some extra domestic duties as their wife's career take off, they sit back watching her out earn them AND do the lions share of the domestics. (If they're particularly irritating they will also frame their job as far more difficult and important than hers, but they are 'unlucky' or treated unfairly so are less successful, whereas she has 'dropped on'.)

I dunno, I think I'd quite like to read a thread like that.. it could be entertaining.

How much they hate women. Sick of it.

Why do they moan?

They do it to build solidarity with other women. To share information. To pass on resources. To support each other. To help other women see the light and encourage them to have the courage to break free. To spread the word that things are changing, that men no longer have the upper hand and that women no longer have to put up with men's shit.

I’m agreeing strongly with what you’re saying but there is a problem if we say “toxic masculinity” but men and boys hear “men are toxic”. That’s what drives them towards the likes of Tate etc. they feel that society thinks men are toxic.

i know that’s not what it means, but to prevent boys especially becoming radicalised we can accept some responsibility for ensuring they understand what we actually mean?

Is there any evidence boys are turning to Tate because they believe society views them as 'toxic'? Because my understanding is that the typical access is via his gateway content on fitness, health, career success and so on. Once there, boys and men recieve the message from Tate that society is against them. As far as responsibility for understanding goes, what form do you think this should take? And who should take it? My adult sons know the meaning of toxic masculinity, and if they didn't I would have educated them. But I'm not responsible for the misunderstanding by random boys and men of a term that they good easily Google.