To have not realised prayers in school was still a thing?

[UnreadyEthel]

DS1 (5) started school in September. One of the reasons I chose the school was that it had no obvious religious affiliation, while another good school in the area is a Christian school. We are secular.

This morning DS1 mentioned over breakfast that they say prayers at school before they eat lunch. I was absolutely gobsmacked. It’s not something I’ve ever come across in non-religious schools (and I have worked in plenty, mainly in cities). DH, who is from the rural area we now live in, was less surprised. ‘I had to do it all the way through school and it never harmed me’. I have sent a polite email to the headteacher asking for clarification of their policies.

DS2 (3) attends the very small nursery next to the school. I asked at pickup today whether they say prayers there and the nursery teacher said ‘yes, of course’. When I asked if DS2 could opt out please she said they’d never come across the situation before, and whether I wanted her to tell him off if he joined in out of habit! I wonder whether they haven’t come across another child who wanted to opt out before because other parents aren’t aware it’s going on? And because they obviously haven’t read the forms I filled in when he enrolled. I also asked what they would do if there was a child of a different religion, but she didn’t know.

AIBU to think this is an outdated practice? Or should I just accept it’s something that comes with raising children in a more rural area of the UK?

I’ve never seen Grace before lunch except in C of E or catholic schools (and not even often in those!)

by law schools are supposed to have a daily act of worship ‘of a broadly Christian nature’ i believe, I wonder if this is what they do to tick that off?

is it that big a deal to you? Also atheist here but this wouldn’t bother me really, it’s mostly saying thank you for having enough to eat.

In England there is a legal requirement for schools to have "daily act of worship" which unless the school is a specific faith school it should be broadly of "a Christian nature".
Or words to that effect.
Some schools will do a little prayer. Some might do a daily "moment of reflection".
You can opt your children out or they could simply not say the words if they don't want to or skip the word "God".
To be honest I expect it's little more than "Thank you God for the food we are about to eat Amem".
Take out God and Amen and it's just a thank you.

I would expect it in any CofE school - and some are CofE affiliated without necessarily seeming it. Are you sure it's a religious prayer rather than a moment of reflection?

It's usually something pretty vague like "for what we are about to receive, may the Lord make us/may we be grateful".

I hate this sort of ‘collective worship’ in secular schools. It should be banned.

I’m in Scotland though so a totally different school system. I find the English system very baffling with all the CoE school stuff.

I agree with your gob-smacked-ness. I do supply teaching in primary schools. Catholic schools definitely pray, CofE schools mostly pray but that’s it.

@UnreadyEthel if you are interested to find out more it's part of the 1944 Education Act.
(I am assuming you're in England.
Apologies of you are not. I don't know the legalities of Scotland, Wales or NI but the 1944 act covers England)

Thanks all, that’s really interesting. We’re in Wales, so not sure whether the rules are the same as in England.

I’m pretty sure it’s a religious prayer, from my brief conversation with the TA this morning.

DH is happy for them to carry on joining in (but will support me either way) as he doesn’t want them to be singled out/bullied. I’ve told them to just sit quietly for now, but hard to know if 3 and 5 year olds will actually remember to do that.

On the grounds that five year olds are not the most reliable reporters, maybe they just say, everyone shut your eyes and be grateful for our nice food, and think about poor children in the world who aren't as lucky as us. Rub-a-dub-dub, thanks for the grub, and all that.

When I was at uni (and admittedly a bit older than 5), we had Latin grace before dinner. Different worlds, and all that.

I’m in a CofE school and we say a short prayer 3 times a day - snack time, lunchtime and end of the day. I quite like it, it builds a sense of belonging. Nobody has opted out but I guess they knew what they were entering into when they chose the school. It’s the first school I’ve ever been in that does though. None of my previous non CofE schools have ever said prayer.

This can mean a lot of different things - I vaguely remember saying grace in primary school - this wasn't something the school or teachers did. I think imitating what we had seen our parents do.

I find this hard to believe.

Christianity is a huge part of British culture. We celebrate Christmas and Easter in schools, why wouldn't we pray too?
What harm do you think it could actually do?

How much worship in state schools seems to depend on how religious the head is, unless they are actually affiliated to a named religion. Whilst there is a law requiring worship, it isn't policed, so is effectively up to the head whether they adhere to the law.

We chose to live in a village that didn't have a CofE primary school, as I'd seen how religion was woven through the school day in some CofE schools and couldn't see it being practical to opt out and we hoped for a more inclusive, less Christian focus.

We then found that our local, non-church primary school is very careful to get in plenty of God and worship, because the head is Christian. We didn't withdraw our DC from religious assemblies, but would have done if they had wanted to be withdrawn. They tried to insist on my DC praying and singing hymns, but my DC generally chose not to participate. They also gave some messages that I fundamentally disagreed with.

We've moved on now and one of the advantages of some independent schools is that they can completely exclude religion, or just do a few carols as part of a general cultural heritage thing, rather than trying to teach children that God exists and he's definitely the Christian one.

Different world indeed!

I hope it is just that, but they definitely put their hands together. I’ll try and get some clarification from the school. Hard to get a straight story out of DS1.

It's not though is it? The vast majority of people who celebrate Christmas and Easter just treat it as a holiday and a chance to catch up with family and friends. It's nothing to do with religion for them. It's more of a tradition than anything to do with religion.

People may identify loosely as Christian but a tiny minority go to church or practice in any meaningful way.

Having said that I don't think saying prayers at school does any harm really.

Just ensure they know if they don’t want to join in the can just stand quietly while everyone else does it.

YANBU. While I don't mind it as such I think it's so outdated, and teaching religion as fact should not be allowed.

I asked DS what he did when the prayer was being said at his school and he said ‘Oh, I just look out the window with the Muslims.’

Most primary schools do a nativity, preschools too. They sing religious Christmas Songs. Shops close on Easter but not other bank holidays as it's the most holy day. I didn't go to a religious school but we did the Lords Prayer every morning.

Lots of harm, potentially.

I have no problem with them learning about religions, but I’d rather religious beliefs weren’t presented as fact, and children made to participate in religious practices without their parents’ consent.

I grew up in various different countries and took part in various forms of worship from different religions. I didn’t believe in any of it but quite enjoyed some of it and I think it made my life richer. I would have been embarrassed if my mum had objected as that would have seemed rude to people who did believe in it. After all, it was it was far more important to them than to me.

Don't stress it OP. I went to Christian schools because that's what was available. We had the daily act of worship as hymn and a brief prayer in assembly, a communion assembly every term, regular evensongs in the nearby Cathedral plus other venues (I was in the school choir) and a big musical service in said cathedral at the end of every term - I'm was, and remain, an atheist.
I'm glad I had the exposure to what is basically my cultural heritage though. Such a lot of our idioms, calendar, and practices in the UK are based on direct bible quotes or old religious custom, that I feel it would be a shame to be ignorant about the context. It also made me very clear about my own beliefs - I am at least informed about what it is I am rejecting, unlike a lot of religious types who seem to think that they know all about what "The Atheists" believe.

Edited to mention the totally sublime music that I was introduced to in choir, but but can obviously be enjoyed anywhere (my parents are not musical).

Because schools can’t just do anything. You can’t sneeze without having to write a policy on it.

@UnreadyEthel a quick Google says that unlike in England it isn't compulsory in a Wales - however many schools choose to do so.
It seems it's very much along the lines of "Thank You God for our school" or "Thank you God for our food".
For most children it's probably just reciting the words and doesn't mean anything to them.
I remember moving up into Juniors (back in 1982) and our assemblies starting including the Lord's Prayer. I didn't say it - because I had never been taught it 😂 The school presumably thought we knew it or something.
My parents weren't religious so it wasn't something they'd taught me.
I expect by my final year I mumbled along.
To this day I don't really know the full words and to me it's pretty much just a poem.

Sometimes the children create a prayer because something has happened.
If you don't want to pray, children, adults can sit quietly and respect others.
Muslims and Sikhs join in or not as they wish. They may wish to lead with their own prayers at times, and others join in or not as they wish.
We say Grace, there is a school prayer, and occasionally we use the Lords Prayer.

That's the norm in CE schools and non-faith schools I am involved with.