To have not realised prayers in school was still a thing?

[UnreadyEthel]

DS1 (5) started school in September. One of the reasons I chose the school was that it had no obvious religious affiliation, while another good school in the area is a Christian school. We are secular.

This morning DS1 mentioned over breakfast that they say prayers at school before they eat lunch. I was absolutely gobsmacked. It’s not something I’ve ever come across in non-religious schools (and I have worked in plenty, mainly in cities). DH, who is from the rural area we now live in, was less surprised. ‘I had to do it all the way through school and it never harmed me’. I have sent a polite email to the headteacher asking for clarification of their policies.

DS2 (3) attends the very small nursery next to the school. I asked at pickup today whether they say prayers there and the nursery teacher said ‘yes, of course’. When I asked if DS2 could opt out please she said they’d never come across the situation before, and whether I wanted her to tell him off if he joined in out of habit! I wonder whether they haven’t come across another child who wanted to opt out before because other parents aren’t aware it’s going on? And because they obviously haven’t read the forms I filled in when he enrolled. I also asked what they would do if there was a child of a different religion, but she didn’t know.

AIBU to think this is an outdated practice? Or should I just accept it’s something that comes with raising children in a more rural area of the UK?

Why don’t you have to say a prayer before you take a book out of a tax payer funded library? Or get your blood pressure checked by your NHS doctor? Why is it only schools which have this requirement to be a nominal Christian in order to take a full part in the day?

The vast majority of British adults have grown up saying prayers at school, I'm amazed you missed them (if you grew up here?) Most of us haven't turned into rabid bible-bashers. In fact, Christianity is in huge decline - despite all the prayers. I would think you're far more likely to make your child interested in religion by making a big deal out of it, and forbidding him from taking part will make it seem like it's something important and exciting. Just let him yawn his way through them like the rest of us and he'll most likely turn out atheist, as most people borne to atheists do.

Ok, you must be correct, of course.

On that basis, shouldn't we also ditch it. It's not serving a purpose. Perhaps we could replace it with a bit more learning time.

I reckon the religious bit of assemblies was about 10 mins a day. At 190 days per year, 14 years of school. With typical lesson time of 5 hours a day, I spent the equivalent of 89 school days "worshipping". That's more than 6 days s year. We fine people for taking children out of school for that much holiday in a year. But the state is ok with stealing that time from our children.

But the child could simply just not say the "God" and "amen" parts.

@UnreadyEthel this Wikipedia article will help: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_worship_in_schools

It's compulsory for English state schools to have collective worship, but it isn't inspected, so the majority of non-church schools don't bother, unless they have a religious headteacher. If schools were ever forced to comply with the law there would be such a backlash that the law would probably end up being repealed. As things stand, whenever a backbencher brings a bill to Parliament to repeal the law, the evidence is trotted out that very few children are withdrawn, so parents must be happy with the status quo. Catch 22.

I didn't even know it was still widespread, so I wouldn't complain if it was scrapped. But I think if it's going on, it's better to go with it rather than make a big deal out of it. Personally, I'd rather the time was spent actually learning about Christian culture as so much of our history is fairly impenetrable without understanding various feast days, rituals etc. The prayers served me no purpose at all, but I think I would've benefitted from a Christian education that actually educated about Christianity.

Spiritual development is also part of the curriculum. Your child, as all humans, will have an innate sense of wonder and may think about the big fundamental questions of life. Being invited to pray may be part of that. I personally wouldn’t make a big deal out of it. It won’t harm them, and will give them an outlet for self reflection. You could try it yourself and see how meditative it is!

Most rural primary schools are CofE (nominally). So yours definitely isn’t?

3 times a day 😱. Fuck that. Pure indoctrination.

It would be good to move on from this outdated waste of time. I would prefer them to spend the time running, playing, singing, dancing, learning about nature, or many other things. Sure learn about religion but preferably a bit about all religions.

They won’t come out indoctrinated in religion because they said a prayer. I’m guessing as you’re rural you don’t have much choice in schools near you.

Your child can be opted out. I know this because I’ve had Jehovah witnesses in my class and it’s a ball ache if their parents are difficult. Eg can’t learn about WW2 because JW don’t believe in war. Yet seem happy to enjoy the freedom that comes with being on the winning side. One parent accused me of forcing her kid to buy a poppy. All I said was the Y6 are here. If you have your poppy money then go line up quietly and I carried on with the lesson!

what does the school brochure say? Have you missed something in the fine print. All children can be withdrawn from RE apart from the statutory bits.

This seems really widespread in Welsh schools, especially rurally. My very rural Welsh primary in the early 2000s was very religious (despite not being a religious school), I was frequently told off for not joining in with prayers and told it wasn't acceptable to just sit quietly during prayers, I had to join in.

DD's school (less rural) was very chilled on religion until the new headteacher started, who is heavily involved in the local evangelist church. It has become extremely Christian based recently - again, not a religious school, never would have chosen it if it was.

We just gave DD blanket permission not to pray and told her that if any teachers questioned her, to tell them to call us.

My younger DD's innate sense of wonder seems to be best served by learning science and geography. The world and universe are amazing without needing the input of one, arbitrary religion.

My elder DD is really enjoying the big fundamental questions in life as they explore them in Philosophy lessons. Compulsory worship didn't do it for her either.

This wouldn’t happen. My late father was brought up being taught that the catholic religion was fact. He was also abused by the Christian brothers (to eh are not priests by the way) who taught at his school. He did not grow up to be religious. He was the most anti religious person you’d ever meet. I know loads of people brought up with religion presented as fact but they don’t become religious. Due to my dad’s upbringing I wasn’t brought up religious. I went to a non religious school. We did say grace but that’s probably it. We had people come in and do assemblies from different religions as well as secular. I’m a grown adult who has chosen a religion to join and I practice it. I brought up my children attending the school connected (Catholic). They have both made to work first holy communion. But I have never forced them to attend church once they were old enough to stay home whilst I go to church. My eldest chose to then be confirmed and served an an altar server. My youngest has pretty much stopped going. That’s her choice. No issues.

I’d check how your school are presenting it though if it’s not a religious school. It sounds like it’s something that’s more of a tradition.

I think that's such a nasty way to get your point across. Prayer isn't grovelling to God at all. Just because you have a different opinion doesn't mean you need to be offensive.

Can you not just see it as a moment used by teachers to focus a class of childrens attention? & mark a time of day?

we used to save grace at school and a prayer before home time. I don’t remember the words, I just remember being told not to knock our chairs off our desks with our bags at hometime.

& don’t worry now, as they get older you’ll have much much more to worry about! 😂

wait for sex education! … the peers educate far more than the teachers … it’s a different type of “oh god”!!

Really? Cause god forbid a muslim wants to do something that get told it's a Christian country and their religion doesn't belong here!

What is a prayer then? - worshipping an imaginary god?

And so He Is! Amen 🙏🏻

Christianity is far from in decline! In fact, there is a Global Spiritual Revival on the assent! Look up! 🙂

I’m not a Christian myself, but we still did it back in school in the 90s. It never did me any harm and I think it’s good to have some tradition! Britain is, after all, a Christian nation.

An innate sense of wonder can be nourished by exploring the realities of the world and engaging with our children in philosophical discussion.

I think complaining about this is frankly ridiculous. Grace gives children some structure at the start of their meal. They wait until everyone has their food then moment to pause and say thank you for the food they are about to eat before they tuck in. It is extremely valuable and not at all outdated. Complaints should be for matters like poor pastoral care.