New councillor wants to stop 'free mixing' between men and women

[SeaSwim5]

Independent candidate Maheen Kamran has been elected in Burnley.

As well as support for Gaza, her manifesto included a pledge to encourage public spaces to end free mixing of men and women.

"Muslim women aren't really comfortable being involved with Muslim men. I'm sure we can have segregated areas, segregated gyms."

Is this a sensible approach and important for inclusivity? It's notable that many anti-Trans activists advocate the importance of single-sex spaces.

However, some have raised concerns about the growing sectarian nature of UK politics.

Should we be looking to reduce 'free mixing' between men and women and create more single sex spaces?

I think we'd both agree that reform are ' far right', so why the hesitancy to admit there is a ' far left'? If we apply your logic, that such extreme factions have limited support, what happened with those numbers last Thursday?

i do think there is a far left. I don’t think the Green Party is but even if you do the numbers last Thursday don’t point to any major jump in support.

I don’t really know what you are saying to be honest. But if there is a threat to the current political system it’s coming from the jump in support to the far right. The far left or even those left of labour do not pose a threat to the current political system because they do not have support.

i’m more of a centralist myself. I’m just pointing out the factual flaws in your words.

@Odras but the far left are generally also very supportive of Muslims and Islam. Yes it contradicts many of their other positions but they seem happy to make the necessary exceptions. So sorry I can’t agree that gender segregation as a concept can’t be seen as a far left idea.

I’m not sure who you qualify as far left to be honest. Who are you talking about?

Like I would consider TUSC far left.

In the UK people like Nadia Whittome and Zarah Sultana and in the US people like Ilhan Omar.

I’ve just had a swim at the local leisure centre for the first time.

Changing cubicles are mixed sex. Gaps at bottom and top. Bars over the top.

Much easier to get changed in the single sex changing area in the gym. A bit cramped in the changing cubicles at the pool and you can’t just pop out to finish dressing once your underwear is on.

Could hear an adult male voice - obviously belonging to someone with an intellectual disability- repeating “I can see you!”

His female carer was outside the cubicles and had to keep calling back “Mind your own business!”

I think the lad was probably harmless, but there really needs to be a better layout, I’d say.

(There are 3 pools, but one wet Chang area. I saw him again as I was leaving - he looked to be about 30. Harmless, but his carer had to keep him on track.)

But all those people are advocates of gender equality not segregation.

I suppose it really depends, like many have said, what this core idea is about. Having a space for women to go to the pool in a women’s only session is an idea and can fit into far left ideology.

Making so that men can only walk down the left side of the street and women can only walk down the right is a gender segregation idea that is not inclusive and does not fit into any left or far left ideology.

Well aside from both being enthusiastic supporters of “Trans rights” both Sultana and Whittome have a strong track record of courting the Muslim vote. So I can’t agree that they are necessarily advocates of gender equality, they’re just hypocrites.

They throw the left scraps to keep them on side. Because they need their X in the polling booth. They’re useful idiots to them and nothing more.

Totally agree with this. It's so important that we keep religion out of politics as much as we can. You only have to look at what's happened to women's rights in Iran and Afghanistan to understand why.

I'm equally concerned about the rise of these "independent" candidates, many of whom are far from independent. Look at the vile campaign fought against Jess Phillips during the election last year and how narrowly she held onto her seat. I also hope the people who have the power to prevent an erosion of our democratic principles, are watching and thinking about all of this. Worrying times.

But this watery liberalism on the issue is what allows the ideology to take hold. There won’t BE moderation - that’s not what Islamic ideology is about. The whole point is that it’s absolutist and NOT moderate. So the Overton window will continue to shift - if we encourage segregation in gyms for religious reasons then why stop there? Next it’ll be transport, and then schools, and so on because why not just 1 more place to be kind and accommodating? We did it with X, why not Y?

In my view we absolutely cannot legislate or enforce any kind of official policy in the name of religion or because in practical terms it is being done for religious ideology.

I’m all for single sex spaces on a case by case basis when established for the purposes of safety, but Islam? Nope.

I agree, I have huge concerns about some of the players out there are the moment. Not just independent MPs and councillors but some extremely dubious lawyers who seem to have made it their personal mission to represent terrorists pro bono and try to tear apart our constitution to benefit Islam.

There cannot be moderation from us as what we are dealing with is not moderate

I think gyms should offer female only sessions if there is demand for it, and they should also have equipment designed for females. In most gyms bikes are sized for men, and women are expected to just put the seat down, but the circle the pedals go through is still too large.

There’s a big difference between that and ending “free mixing” of the sexes.

Read the thread about Hampstead women’s pond, and the comment about a man in a bikini proudly displaying his genitals. Not an accident — he was sitting on the edge of the pool with his legs apart.

Again I think I should mention - when I googled this there is only papers like the telegraph, daily mail saying this. Also articles in Israeli news and some far right commentators.

I can’t find a social media presence for her. But there isn’t any mention of thjs on her website

https://maheenkamran.com

I do wonder is she being targeted just because she is a Muslim women.

Her interpretation of " area" is what's concerning... Not an area in the gym, but a " public area". Where are the limits? Divided high streets? Divided hospitals? She's a medical student so you'd hope she doesn't mean this. Maybe she needs to step forward and clarify. How do you feel about her only addressing Muslim women and Muslim men? Do you not have concerns that's she's not striving to represent ALL of her constituents, from all faiths and backgrounds? Where's the inclusion? Many I imagine just want the pot holes fixed and their bins collected and don't care for a gender segregated community. Religion really should be nowhere near politics.

@FineDayTomorrow but sure we don’t know what she said. It’s not on her website at all.

I couldn't find anything specifically about "public areas", just this quote:

“There’s a big aspect of free mixing,” she said. “Muslim women aren’t really comfortable with being involved with Muslim men. I'm sure we can have segregated areas, segregated gyms, where Muslim women don't have to sacrifice their health.”

The problem is that, without any context, it's difficult to widen the interpretation beyond the specifics mentioned: health and gyms.

Her campaign materials were, indeed, all the usual schools, green spaces type stuff.

Oh hello OP! Great follow up post! Really helpful of you to prove so very clearly that you don't actually care either way about what Muslim women might want, you just wanted to bitch about women who want single sex spaces and thought stirring up a nice bit of Islamophobia would give you an opener.

So, on to this new topic.

Among the many things you are missing is that even this single letter writer (whose voice weirdly seems to have more weight with you than the many many women who disagree with you) doesn't use men's toilets exclusively, but occasionally, from time to time, when it's convenient for her, and most importantly at the time, and the venue, and with the men, of her choosing.

If there hadn't been a queue for the ladies do you really think she would have been squatting over a urinal?

If she'd walked in and there was shit all over the stall would she have pee'd anyway?

If she'd walked in and instead of saying "fine" and looking away a bit embarrassed, one of the blokes had reacted aggressively or sexually would she have carried on?

I don't think so. I think she'd have turned around and gone straight back out again to queue for the ladies. Because she has the choice.

And choosing to use mixed-sex facilities (which as I'm sure you know means more than toilets) when it works for you and you can decide if you feel safe, or comfortable, or unembarassed, is very different to having no choice about it ever, to never being able to get away from men no matter how they behave to you or in that shared space.

But you knew that, right?

I've used squat toilets abroad and have squatted out in the woods when there was no other option, but I can't fathom the logistics of squatting over a urinal (particularly with my arthritic knees).

I've just noticed this bit: "most people were in fancy dress and it was hard to tell who was male and who was female". Really?

????

Really, no.

I sat in the very back row of the theatre to see Moulin Rouge and when the can can dancers came in, all wearing heels and corsets and fishnet tights and wigs and makeup, it took me about three nanoseconds to clock that one of them was a bloke.

Surely that Guardian letter just suggests that actually, trans woman aren’t at risk by using men’s facilities. Very different from a man using woman’s facilities of course. And @MissScarletInTheBallroom totally agree, I have a very fine antennae for this - it’s often the hip waist ratio and shoulder size that gives it away if nothing else.

Single sex should be the default option because it's too dangerous otherwise. Gender neutral the harder one to access!

Sex segregation, not 'gender'.