New councillor wants to stop 'free mixing' between men and women

[SeaSwim5]

Independent candidate Maheen Kamran has been elected in Burnley.

As well as support for Gaza, her manifesto included a pledge to encourage public spaces to end free mixing of men and women.

"Muslim women aren't really comfortable being involved with Muslim men. I'm sure we can have segregated areas, segregated gyms."

Is this a sensible approach and important for inclusivity? It's notable that many anti-Trans activists advocate the importance of single-sex spaces.

However, some have raised concerns about the growing sectarian nature of UK politics.

Should we be looking to reduce 'free mixing' between men and women and create more single sex spaces?

@SeaSwim5 what is an anti-trans activist?

Someone who uses the term 'anti-trans' in England is not likely to draw attention to potebtially controversial statements made by Muslims. In my opinion.

Umm. So each gender would get a turn every 100 days? Or are you saying the other genders are not worthy of separate days. Rather transphobic don’t you think?

Giving women who require a segregated space for privacy reasons, for example, using a gym or swimming a man-free "time slot", for example Monday afternoon and early Saturday morning, is fair enough.

This.

Single sex spaces are not anti trans.

Single sex spaces should be set up if proportionate to an end goal. Where biology matters.

For decades, where possible, single sex provision in places where women and men undress has been proportionate to a legitimate aim. One aim is for women to be protected from biological males due to the fact men commit around 99% of all sexual assaults and the vast majority of those assaults are against biological women. This is not a belief it’s just factual.

Another aim is because biological women and men have different biological bodies and needs and it is sensible to allow privacy and dignity where people undress. This may stretch to include designated swimming sessions or gym sessions, again because of biology. Men tend to dominate certain areas of the gym, for example, in the strength areas due to biological differences.

Segregation should not stretch to areas of life where biology doesn’t matter. So, no other part of public life.

A women's only gym isn't putting a stop on free-mixing. It's not obligatory, there will probably be 1 of these for every 100 mixed ones. They are rare as hens teeth and are very popular in my non muslim town. Lots of women seem to want to exercise in a women only environment. I don't think we need to be worried about mandatory forced segregation in public spaces, despite what the DM tells us.

I live in a city where a similar % of the population are Muslims. On the local women’s Facebook group (lots of Muslim women on it) women only gyms seem popular and there’s the odd question about women only swimming sessions, but no more than that.

The cafe segregation suggestion below makes me see what pp meant re this thread.

It might feel like a win to post a thread combining two things but it also highlights the growth of religion in politics which is not welcomed by everyone and doesn’t do much for biological men either.

This is a slippery slope.
I don't buy the whole 'we need to be protected from men in public spaces' argument. Abuse happens overwhelmingly at home and in other controlled environments where men in a position of authority or trust have easy access to women and girls. The answer to the issue is fighting off toxic masculine influencers - be they religious or total heathens. Misogyny is a real issue. Hiding away is not going to make our lives easier - it'll just make us invisible. Also, very often, an option becomes an expectation. If women only gyms and other facilities actually take off, by default the mixed ones will be more and more dominated by male patrons and soon the expectation would be that women can only safely go to women-only spaces. It will make our world smaller.
Instead of campaigning to put ourselves into a prison of our own making, why don't we focus all of our energy on improving rape conviction rates and building more prisons to put those offenders away?

Single sex spaces for safety concerns, like changing rooms, toilets.

Single sex sessions when you may be more exposed, like swimming, or the gym

Is this counsellor asking for Single sex everything? For that I'd say no, I don't agree

And god forbid there's male only spaces.

Of course misogyny needs tackling. Allowing men into women’s spaces doesn’t tackle misogyny.

but how come women only spaces have been fine for years, including gyms and people just accepted them. They saw the need for them and that was that. They weren’t a slippery slope. That had ‘taken off’. Women’s bathrooms, changing rooms, gyms, rape crisis centres, prisons were all a thing.

Then men wanted access to those spaces and women said no, now it’s a slippery slope.

Again you are right that most abuse tackles place in the home. That doesn’t mean we should protect women where they vulnerable.

The woman who was raped on a hospital ward and the. Told it didn’t happen because there was only women on the ward, when there was in fact a transwomen, did she not deserve protection because most abuse happens at home? was it ok to deny what happened to her? Because it’s just one woman?

What about all the women who end up locked in prison with transwomen who have a history of attacking women? Are they an acceptable risk because someone has decided that after years of women have some spaces to themselves it’s now a slippery slope.

it wasn’t a slippery slope until some men wanted access and were told no. Weird.

Women only groups or gym/swim sessions have been a thing for years and years. Why is it NOW a slippery slope?

Of course they are, because they don't really give a shit about the Muslim women either way. It's just a tool for them to try to "catch out" women who stick up for women.

Their facile, playground understanding goes "if you are in favour of not having men around in situation A, but not in favour of not having men around in situation B, then you are a hypocrite who is lying about caring for women when really you just hate trans people".

To me this demonstrates so clearly that they aren't actually thinking about the women at all, because if they were thinking about the women as actual real people, different people in different scenarios, what those individuals would feel and why and understanding each different "no men" need as an outcome of real people's challenges not a standalone abstract, their minds wouldn't go to making the equivalnce in the first place.

And what that means is no male employees working at the gym at that time …. Completely sexist working practices. Never gonna happen.

I've just read she is 18. What does anyone really know about life when 18. I remember a programme on TV where they took a young Leeds guy out to Yemen to see what life was like there. His family were originally from there. He was literally crying in the programme and wanted to just get home to Leeds. Perhaps this young lady needs to go and spend some real time in Pakistan and observe some of this in reality as opposed to the sanitised British version she wants.

Apologies it was Sheffield . https://www.bbc.com/news/world-12492615#:~:text=Elsewhere%20on%20the%20BBC,Man%20Like%20Mobeen%20has%20arrived

There are no staff in the council run gym I go to just a receptionist there is someone in an office somewhere. They do run after school sessions twice a week just for girls supervised by a female instructor. I don’t see how hard it would be to run a womans session.

Big building though and it’s a walk from the changing room to the gym and I think it’d be disproportionate to prohibit male use of whole building.

Plenty of swimming pools manage this. I know swimming pools in at least three councils which have men only sessions staffed by men in the pool area and then women's only sessions staffed only by women in the pool area. One is in an area with a large Orthodox Jewish population, another in a diverse city and the other is my home town which has a large but not majority Pakistani Muslim community. They manage to make it work. It's usually about 4 hours a week in total

If you read the Equality Act (I’m assuming you haven’t) it allows single sex spaces as “a proportionate means to achieve a legitimate aim”, so depends on pretty specific circumstances.

e.g. If many women feel uncomfortable sharing a gym with men, and need equipment specifically adapted to women’s bodies which is often not available in mixed gyms, then it would be a legitimate aim to encourage women to exercise. And proportionate because there are plenty of mixed sex gyms for people who want that.

If there is a particular issue with lack of higher education qualifications and unemployment of women in an area and this could be addressed with a woman-only IT training course for example, that could be proportionate and legitimate until that situation improves.

I think a woman-only shop wouldn’t have any particular benefit for women and segregation of women and men for no reason is massively damaging - the end goal is that we are equal contributors to society rather than living in 2 parallel worlds.

I am a gender critical feminist and I think male behavior and our misogynistic culture provides plenty of justification for women only spaces. The question in each case is “Does this improve or worsen the status and wellbeing of women in our society?”

From your replies it seems like you’re just looking for an excuse to label people “anti-trans” and rant about that.

Also what’s your problem with this woman supporting Gaza? Aren’t you concerned about the killing of over 50,000 men women and children? Attacks on ambulances and aid deliveries? Starvation as a weapon of war?

Literally no women’s rights campaigners have called for trans people to not to have any rights at all.

No man, regardless of his identity , has the right to use spaces set aside for women.

No man or woman, regardless of their identity, has the right to compel the speech of others and require them to pretend that person has changed sex.

Women require single sex spaces in situations where we are vulnerable - that is absolutely not the same as persecution of women and segregation on religious grounds.

The religious approach is to cover women up or hide them away because the men can’t control their base instincts. Non religious women want single sex spaces so we can participate MORE freely and safely in society.

Women only groups or gym/swim sessions have been a thing for years and years. Why is it NOW a slippery slope?

First, there is a difference between a private business and a political agenda with a religious undercurrent. There is a creeping trend - in part driven by radical religious agendas- which seeks to isolate women. The root of all evil is sectarianism. That's the slippery slope I'm concerned about. I don't want my whereabouts and future purely determined by my biology. Men need to learn to control themselves and if they can't, off to jail with them for the longest time possible. I don't want to be signposted to women-only spaces. We fought hard to have access to men-only clubs, jobs and 'spaces' when that used to be the whole world. It can very quickly become the whole world again. In fact, the loons in power in the US are dying to bring that back. And the bearded loons who only tolerate women covered from head to toe want the same thing.
There is a risk that we will end up undoing a century of progress.

I'm agnostic currently but I've been reading about different religions and have tried learning about islam.

I kinda understand the point and reasonings behind limiting "free-mixing"?

No. You talked about not be concerned about women’s spaces because most abuse happens in the home.

You said it was a slippery slope and that you didn’t buy that women need protection from men in public spaces. Except it’s always been agreed, even in law that women do.

It was only when men wanted access to these women’s spaces and a lot of women said no, that it’s became a slippery slope. It’s only then that some other women Tried to convince women it was actually feminism to allow men to do what they want and take the things that we fought hard for. And tried to convince women it was taking steps backward, to want to keep those spaces.

why can’t we say ‘it’s appropriate for women to ah e some spaces that are for women’ and also ‘it needs to be proportionate’ which we managed for years.

Again, since you didn’t quote my whole post. Why haven’t women’s spaces been a slippery slope since they became a thing? Why is women wanting their own spaces a slippery slope? Because it means some men don’t get their way?

Or is it because all other TRA arguments aren’t working so let’s blame women, who protect other women for religious idiots wanting to further subjugate women. Is it because some people are baffled that women are still speaking up despite being threatened and called names? So this is the next try?

If religious idiots want to try and further subjugate women, let’s tackle that and put the blame where it lies. Misogyny. Not the the women who actually stand up for women.

again, women’s only spaces weren’t a slippery slope until we said no to men entering.

You have this backwards, because you are thinking about these women as a problem to solve instead of thinking from the point of view of the women.

No-one is suggesting that single sex public life replaces mixed sex public life. It's an addition, for those women who need it, while they need it.

From the point of view of a woman already within a misogynist and separatist culture, having more public single sex places/services means she gets to expand her public lilfe and social circle. She gets more freedom, not less. And she gets to mix with a wider group of people. She gets more integrated, not less.

And seeing and hearing from other women is powerful. We see it all the time on the Relationships and AIBU board, women talking to women and realising that no, the way they are being treated is not ok, other women are not living like that.

So while I 100% agree that the fundamental problem is male behaviour and this needs to be challenged and tackled in all our cultures, given how long that seems to be taking I am not against giving women support to live better and more fulfilling lives in the meantime.