New councillor wants to stop 'free mixing' between men and women

[SeaSwim5]

Independent candidate Maheen Kamran has been elected in Burnley.

As well as support for Gaza, her manifesto included a pledge to encourage public spaces to end free mixing of men and women.

"Muslim women aren't really comfortable being involved with Muslim men. I'm sure we can have segregated areas, segregated gyms."

Is this a sensible approach and important for inclusivity? It's notable that many anti-Trans activists advocate the importance of single-sex spaces.

However, some have raised concerns about the growing sectarian nature of UK politics.

Should we be looking to reduce 'free mixing' between men and women and create more single sex spaces?

Yes, I know. I was disagreeing with her in my post. Separate spaces are essential in a small number of situations in order to ensure safety, fairness and dignity for women. The fact I have been know to occasionally use men's spaces does not make that any less so.

Why is that the easiest option?

why should women need to find a member or staff, wait for them to be available to come and unlock it, just to have access to a single sex space?

Why is that easier?

FWIW, I think the easiest solution is to move to a position where all spaces are gender neutral, inclusive and accessible to all. There can then be limited provision for single sex facilities for those who want them.
E.g. a shopping centre could have one cubicle solely for women, accessible by contacting staff for a key.

I disagree. The default should be single sex for toilets, changing rooms, showers, prisons, homeless hostels etc with a small number of mixed sex spaces to facilitate those who are uncomfortable using services that match their sex or for those who don't care.

The 'easiest' solution is not to exclude a huge proportion of the population in order to make a vastly smaller number feel that they're being kind and another group rub their thighs with glee. It's not easier to give the smaller number that are, frankly, bloody fortunate that they can't comprehend why this is a stupid idea the opportunity to experience exactly what the consequences are of having males of all identities with free access to them as default. It's not easier once they begin to experience those consequences to get vested interests to acknowledge that it was wrong and to then wind back all the removal of single sex protections.

If you have a kid telling you that they're a grown up and don't need a bedtime and should be able to have chocolate for every meal, it's not going to harm them permanently to find out that they're overtired the next morning and feel a bit sick. If you have a partner insisting that only idiots read the assembly instructions for an IKEA wardrobe they've bought, it's fine to say 'crack on, then' and walk away to find out it resembles a wardrobe designed by Dali after nine hours. But this isn't a generally inconsequential outcome for females.

It's potentially rape and sexual assault.

@SeaSwim5why are you so desperate for women and men to mix in toilets? What drives you?

Seconded. What is that suggestion below

@WhenYouSayNothingAtAll

I'm not desperate for that to happen. Personally I'm not bothered by who is in the cubicle next to mine.

Clearly though, it is a very divisive issue. In my view the most simple and inclusive solution would be to make all spaces gender neutral and accessible to everyone.

There should be some provision for people who want or need single sex spaces. However, these should not necessarily be convenient to ensure that the gender neutral provision remains the default.

Yea you are . That’s what it comes down to. The default is separate sexes. It’s already set up and built and the majority are happy. The law supports it. How would building something completely different and reducing half the population’s spaces to “a few cubicles” be the easy way? It’s not easy, practical, logical, it’s against the law and it doesn’t make financial sense either.

It’s only easy if that’s what you really want. You say you don’t care who is next to you, so why not keep sharing with women only (if indeed you are a woman) like you’ve done for years?. So once again , why do you want mixed toilets?

It’s a terrible suggestion and one I doubt we’ll see.

@WhenYouSayNothingAtAll

Because gender neutral facilities are more inclusive and avoid arguments about who is and isn't entitled to use them.

It needn't be expensive as it would just be a case of making existing single sex facilities mixed gender.

One cubicle each on site could then be kept as single sex for men and women. E.g. a shopping centre could have two cubicles on the top floor as single sex or a university could have two cubicles on campus.

But I thoughtt TW were scared to share spaces with men? So why would they be ok with mixed sex spaces? Because if it was mixed gender, then men world be in with the TW. So why is it ok for TW to share mixed spaces with men and not men only spaces? I could have a cynical guess I suppose.

Again, it is NOT simple, because as I've proven to you, it is VERY DANGEROUS. It puts women and girls in danger. This is why single sex spaces must remain the default.

This has been explained over and over to you, so I can only assume you are trolling at this stage.

Toilets aren't meant to be 'inclusive'.

And for the third time, it's the COMMUNAL space with only females around us that gives us support. Cubicles don't give us that support. So it would defeat the purpose.
@Keeptoiletssafe , look at this please.

Haven’t read whole thread, but this quote from the councillor leapt out:

“Muslim women aren't really comfortable being involved with Muslim men. I'm sure we can have segregated areas, segregated gyms."

So are muslim women comfortable with non-Muslim men? And are the rest of us comfortable with Muslim men?

We should segregate as little as possible because
A a significant minority feel their gender does not match their sex
B It objectifies the other sex eg incels problem is that they don't know any women and don't know how to approach them
C women can learn how to interact with men successfully
D most problems need a variety of approaches to solve
E women will end up locked out of power

@SeaSwim5 I have read your thoughts and you seem to think mixed sex toilets are a good idea. Can you explain why?

Mixed sex toilets are never as safe as single sex toilets. There should be as few of them as possible.

No

Interesting. Muslim men. Not men In general?

Your suggestions are, still getting sex and gender muddled up.
The initial words of the new teenage councillor opened over analysed. I’m sure she’ll put out a statement soon enough.

I would be against this in most public places (except toilets and changing rooms, though I do prefer a good gender neutral option personally, I understand many women feel uncomfortable with this).

The odd slot for men or women who don't want to mix with the opposite sex at the gym or whatever is one thing, but don't take away my ability to mix freely with half of the population in general.

It reminds me of visiting a working man's club with some of DH family and being turned away from the snooker room for owning a vagina... so stupid and insulting, it felt like going back in time.

Facilities provided to a group to meet a legitimate need are not supposed to be inclusive. They are supposed to be supportive to the group that needs them.

A breastfeeding room is not an inclusive space. It is for women who are breastfeeding. It is not for men. It is not for women who are not breastfeeding. No one who is not breastfeeding has any right to to get butthurt about not being 'included.'

So you’re happy to compromise women’s and girls’ privacy, dignity and safety to “stop arguments”? Fuck me that’s an extremist “be kind” stance. Interesting how your magnanimous single sex “options” examples are highly inconvenient. Just two and top floor /somewhere on campus. You don’t just want women to share toilets with men, you want the ones that object to be punished for it.

I see you.

@WhenYouSayNothingAtAll

I think there should be discreet single sec options for those who want them.

However, these shouldn't be too accessible to ensure the gender neutral facility remains the default option. I also wouldn't want these to become a circus.

Again. Toilets are sex segregated, not gender. And why should gender neutral be the norm? It never has been. Most people don’t want it to be.

'Discreet but not too accessible' (whatever the fuck that means) single sex facilities that us old fashioned folk can sidle into shame faced, while you hang out with the cool kids