AIBU to suggest it is time to stop the pretence that people can transition?

[happydappy2]

I really feel gender ideology is a cult, that has totally warped some peoples minds. It brings so many problems to society I’m not sure it’s sustainable. It damages the health of young people, shortens their lives and often rips families apart. At what point do we say no, this is not healthy, it’s incredibly antisocial to expect everyone else to pretend you are the opposite sex when they can see you aren’t….for the good of society let’s stop this madness. Gender dysphoria exists yes but I don’t think we’re treating it in the best way. We don’t affirm that an anorexic patient is indeed too fat so why do we affirm people who think they are the opposite sex?

Totally agree.

Distinction is the word “think”. If they have the full surgery then I think it’s fine.

My rudimentary understanding is that gender dysmorphia is a serious mental health condition. I have much less concern sharing toilets with people who have a diagnosis and have had full surgery. But refuges etc should stay single sex. Perhaps with a "third" sex for those tiny amount who have actually actually have transitioned.

My honest response is that I find the whole transitioning thing utterly bizarre - I don't know how anyone believes for one second that a boy can 'become' a girl - in fact, I have no idea whatsover what that even means. I have female friends that I admire who are vocally supportive of trans people (particuarly trans women) and it makes me feel like they're speaking a totally different language or living on a different planet or something - I can't get my head around they idea that they can look at a six foot person with broad shoulders and a deep voice in a dress and say 'that's a woman.' What's interesting is that when my DS was little he wore dresses and one of those friends automatically assumed he was trans and wanted to be a girl - the idea that a boy could wear dresses just did not compute with her. It seems mad to me that, given recent views, my belief that a boy can wear dresses is in many ways more controversial than the idea that a boy can become a girl. WTF?

The percentage of people who fully surgically transition is tiny and it should not be encouraged by allowing those people access to the opposite sex single sex spaces. It is harmful and rarely successful surgery which can cause lifelong issues. For those very reasons all people who transition should be refused access to the single sex spaces of the opposite sex.

No, it absolutely is not fine. No amount of surgery can turn a a man into a woman or vice versa.

What someone wants to do with their body is to my mind their business as long as it isn’t hurting anyone else. What is interesting is that the debate is all centered on biology and the biology being centred on reproduction. Maybe I’ve misunderstood but that’s what I have taken away from it. What happens to this arguement to women who can’t reproduce - does this make them “less” women? Also some people are born with both male and female genetalia. What does this mean to the arguement based on biology. does this mean there are more than just men and women - a third gender.
As a person born as a woman at birth I do not understand why there is a focus on this at the moment. It seemed to be a fringe issue for decades and then to my mind out of no where there has been this focus on trans women in toilets and prisons. Have to be honest - just seems a bit weird.

It’s totally fine in my mind for anyone to wear to a dress - after all we women wear trousers etc.!

Well said @happydappy2people can present however they want but I’m horrified at the way this cult sucks in autistic vulnerable girls. There’s almost no support for kids with autism and most struggle socially but say you’re trans and suddenly you are surrounded by friends and supporters who cheer you on. These kids suddenly have friends and the promise that all of their problems will disappear in a puff of smoke. It’s truly evil the way they are lured in.

Argg misclicked. No you are Not unreasonable.

People have been saying that for years.

Matt Walsh in particular has referred specifically to "the cult of gender ideology" for the best part of a decade.

As hard as I try, I struggle to see the issue here. The tiny number of people I’ve met with strong feeling either way have been cranks or just plain nasty.

What about people who do and have lived as the opposite sex for many years with the vast majority of other people not noticing?

I’m not comfortable with self ID and thinks like trans women in women’s sports, but I don’t feel threatened by someone who has had surgery.

A distinction needs to be made between people who have genuinely transitioning as much as possible with hormones and surgery, and people who identify as trans but not enough to do anything medical about it.

Even people born with ambiguous sex organs or variations of both (known as DSD - Difference in Sexual Development) are ultimately either male or female. Their chromosomes determine their true sex.

There never has been, nor can ever be, a "third sex". All mammals are binary sexually.

I think they should treat the mental health issue rather than the body, which can never be repaired.

Nobody has both male and female genitalia. Some extremely rare disorders of sexual development mean a person may have ambiguous genitalia but nowadays with DNA testing, scans etc the cases where a person's sex is genuinely unclear are vanishingly rare. In any case, hardly anyone with a trans identity has any sort of disorder of sexual development. Some very old school transsexuals believe they do, but taking the form of a psychological problem, i.e. they have a body that is quite obviously male or female, but they can't shake off the fixation that they should have been female or male. They sometimes express this as having been born in the wrong body. Quite obviously nobody can be born in the wrong body, so this should be treated as a mental health issue, which is what used to happen.

If you only read Mumsnet and never stepped foot outside the door you'd think the country was populated only of trans people desperately trying to force themselves into public toilets.

There's a damaging cult but not necessarily the one you think it is 🙄

Biology is literally what makes you make or female.
The fact that some women can’t have children doesn’t men they are men. It’s why research into women’s health is important so that the problems/ abnormalities/ conditions can be treated.
Having abnormal sex organs doesn’t make anyone a third sex . It’s male or female with a difference in sexual development.

Hi, ultimately my feeling is that whatever someone wants to do with their body is up to them. I appreciate there are differing views on this and respect your view. My concern is that there are people out there, trans people, who by a small minority are just going to have their lives made hellish. And that I am sad about.

Also, of course people with reproductive problems or who choose not to reproduce are fully human just like everyone else. The whole point here is that women and girls are treated differently from men and boys because of our reproductive status, whether we reproduce or not. Also, anybody who goes through male puberty ends up physically larger and stronger than the vast majority of females. That together with male socialisation means that males are a risk to females. Not all males are violent or sexual predators, but some are, and very few females are, and we are less able to fend off attackers.

None of this changes when someone pronounces the magic words 'I identify as ...' The hormone and surgical treatments offered to trans-identified people do not change a male into a female or a female into a male for reproductive or any other purposes. They will remain their original sex for the rest of their lives.

I read this from Rebecca Helm, Biology Professor. It’s made me question things. I’d be interested in other biologists point of view because this makes it more complex.
“If you know a bit about biology you will probably say that biological sex is caused by chromosomes, XX and you’re female, XY and you’re male. This is “chromosomal sex” but is it “biological sex”? Well…
Turns out there is only ONE GENE on the Y chromosome that really matters to sex. It’s called the SRY gene. During human embryonic development the SRY protein turns on male-associated genes. Having an SRY gene makes you “genetically male”. But is this “biological sex”?
Sometimes that SRY gene pops off the Y chromosome and over to an X chromosome. Surprise! So now you’ve got an X with an SRY and a Y without an SRY. What does this mean?
A Y with no SRY means physically you’re female, chromosomally you’re male (XY) and genetically you’re female (no SRY). An X with an SRY means you’re physically male, chromsomally female (XX) and genetically male (SRY). But biological sex is simple! There must be another answer…
Sex-related genes ultimately turn on hormones in specifics areas on the body, and reception of those hormones by cells throughout the body. Is this the root of “biological sex”??
“Hormonal male” means you produce ‘normal’ levels of male-associated hormones. Except some percentage of females will have higher levels of ‘male’ hormones than some percentage of males. Ditto ditto ‘female’ hormones. And…
…if you’re developing, your body may not produce enough hormones for your genetic sex. Leading you to be genetically male or female, chromosomally male or female, hormonally non-binary, and physically non-binary. Well, except cells have something to say about this…
Maybe cells are the answer to “biological sex”?? Right?? Cells have receptors that “hear” the signal from sex hormones. But sometimes those receptors don’t work. Like a mobile phone that’s on “do not disturb’. Call and cell, they will not answer.
What does this all mean?
It means you may be genetically male or female, chromosomally male or female, hormonally male/female/non-binary, with cells that may or may not hear the male/female/non-binary call, and all this leading to a body that can be male/non-binary/female.
Biological sex is complicated. Before you discriminate against someone on the basis of “biological sex” & identity, ask yourself: have you seen YOUR chromosomes? Do you know the genes of the people you love? The hormones of the people you work with? The state of their cells?
Since the answer will obviously be no, please be kind, respect people’s right to tell you who they are, and remember that you don’t have all the answers. Again: biology is complicated. Kindness and respect don’t have to be. “

I remember when it used to be called 'having a sex change' in the 60s and 70s, Back then everyone (even the people themselves) agreed that you couldn't actually change your sex. I think people felt largely sympathetic towards people who had had a sex change, and felt that if someone was prepared to go to those lengths to live as a woman then they were obviously serious and to take them at face value.

The shrilly rising demands that TWAW has utterly failed to convince the vast majority of the population that biological sex can be changed, something now confirmed in the SC, and that should be an end to it.

Yes I agree, I think the way society has moved towards affirmation is actually really damaging. I often see videos of transwomen seemingly truly believing they pass because people are basically terrified of misgendering etc. I think it contributes to some serious delusion. I think previously people were told that it would be very difficult before they transitioned, that they may never pass as a woman that they may find it hard to form romantic relationships and I think thats the right thing to do before someone starts surgeries or hormones and does something they can’t reverse.

Thats just the impact on people with gender dysphoria being lied to by those who are supposed to be helping them let alone the impact on women and wider society.

And this is exactly why these ideologies are dangerous, because they indoctrinate kids to that extreme, for the silliest reasons, like a kid wearing a dress 😐

As a person born as a woman at birth I do not understand why there is a focus on this at the moment. It seemed to be a fringe issue for decades and then to my mind out of no where there has been this focus on trans women in toilets and prisons. Have to be honest - just seems a bit weird.

Yes, it is weird isn't it? Perhaps you should have a read of this article, it will explain a lot.

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