AIBU to suggest it is time to stop the pretence that people can transition?

[happydappy2]

I really feel gender ideology is a cult, that has totally warped some peoples minds. It brings so many problems to society I’m not sure it’s sustainable. It damages the health of young people, shortens their lives and often rips families apart. At what point do we say no, this is not healthy, it’s incredibly antisocial to expect everyone else to pretend you are the opposite sex when they can see you aren’t….for the good of society let’s stop this madness. Gender dysphoria exists yes but I don’t think we’re treating it in the best way. We don’t affirm that an anorexic patient is indeed too fat so why do we affirm people who think they are the opposite sex?

Pronouns aren’t a preference, though, just as calling a chair a chair rather than a table isn’t a preference.

There is no such thing as preferred pronouns, they are absolutely demanded and coerced speech.

We disagree. But that’s fine.
The hypocrisy is incredible

Yes. I think that maybe some people either don’t recognise the emotional repercussions or employment or social repercussions because they have decided only someone disrespectful would not do it so they deserve it. Or maybe to acknowledge the repercussions would force them to acknowledge the totalitarianism and authoritarianism. Or any number of reasons.

That is also why some people focus on the individual (often citing those they love) rather than doing an analysis at collective level.

Either way, once you see the impact as per the NHS Fife case, I doubt you can go back.

Seeing SC judges state TW AM is just more reinforcement that it is all a philosophical belief. If there was any biological markers, the Scot Gov would have used that as a defence. There is enough consultants that Scot Gov consulted for the Act that has been stopped, just like Hilary Cass found none, so I think we can assume the time for proving biological markers has passed.

Totally agree. Transgenderism has all the marks of a cult. It isn't possible to transition to the other sex and gender is a social construct based on regressive stereotypes.

As long as it harms no-one it's fine. But transitioning particularly MtF does harm other people: wives, children, brothers and sisters, friends, all of whom are compelled to pretend someone's fantasy/kink is real or be excluded and abused.
Your comment that the issue is centred round biology and the question where this leaves a woman past childbearing etc - is she still a woman? - is a red herring. Sex is determined by chromosomes and sex is determined at conception, at once. A woman belongs to that sex which will/does/can/did produce large gametes. A man belongs to that sex which will/does/can/did produce small gametes. A woman does not cease to be a woman when she ceases to bear children, a man does not cease to be a man because he has had a vasectomy.

Hope this is helpful.

Unfortunately, the idea that children are sexual beings has permeated the highest levels on earth, e.g. the UN, which promotes not sex education but sexuality education with pleasure often cited as the only reason you need for doing something which might be dangerous, psychologically damaging or physically harmful.
To suggest to children that if something is pleasurable it is ok is to open the doors to those who would harm and exploit children.

One of the pretences that annoys me most is that transwomen pass. Tv show after tv show, a trans identifying male actor is completely unmentioned by other characters in circumstances where they surely should. ‘Police interview trans woman and walk away with no mention of previous name being potentially relevant or any other sign that they realise they aren’t speaking to a woman’. Oh, and particularly egregious in Wheel of Time, where the trans ‘sister’ wielding the one power should have gone mad from wielding the power, as was inevitable for men!

This makes a man a eunuch, not a woman.

I don’t understand how this word has gone out of fashion when it is absolutely correct - a man with this surgery, no matter what he might try to request as a facsimile in its place, can only ever aspire to be a eunuch. This is absolutely nothing to do with womanhood, but is entirely such male person’s mental illness.

I agree, the question I asked was is there a difference between a trans woman who still has all male body parts and one who has had their genitals removed

I believe it was one of the banned words along with castration.

What about people who do and have lived as the opposite sex for many years with the vast majority of other people not noticing?

No-one didn't notice.

Well of course there are physical differences - just the same if one had brown hair and another was bald, or one short and the other tall - but they are both, first and foremost, and always, Men.

the enforced gender stereotypes of dresses, nurturing, pink, softness, frivolity, make up, crying, bloody “kindness”

They never seem so keen to get hooked up to those machines that simulate cramps & contractions to get a (smidgeon) of the feeling of menstruation or labour. They never seem to want to volunteer to be woken up by a crying every two hours for weeks. They never seem to want to do loads of unpaid labour. Nor be paid less for the same work. Nor be managed out after having to go off work for childcare. Etc etc etc.

They never seem to want to wear the standard female causal uniform of jeans/leggings, trainers, puffer coat and no or little makeup. I wonder why.

Funny that.

We need a conversation in court to test if gender ideology is Worthy Of Respect In A Democratic Society.

My bet is that it fails.

As a philosophical belief, it would be, I think. Didn't the Forstater judgment say so?

I sometimes think I'd like to see the law examine the meaning of gender identity, but then I remember the law doesn't actually legislate for (or against) it, only gender reassignment. I guess gender identity is a factor in the ideology, as the soul is in older religions.

No, that's not what I was saying. Actually.

But in order to be protectable as a philosophical belief it needs to fulfil the Grainger Criteria:

“Be a belief as to a weighty and substantial aspect of human life and behaviour. Attain a certain level of cogency, seriousness, cohesion and importance.”

I’m not sure it does, particularly the last bit.

Which aspect did the Forstater judgement protect? I can’t remember enough detail.

Tonton makes a fair point though don’t you think?

I think I made a very fair point. Don't you think so?

So much discussion of transgender people by posters who've never met or talked to a transgender person, and genuinely have no interest in how a transgender person thinks or feels.

OP - maybe you should just find some transgender people and tell them how they should think and feel about themselves, and how they should live their lives. They obviously just need telling by someone who's not transgender and has no idea what being transgender is like.

Honestly if transgender women disappeared off the face of the earth tomorrow there would be plenty of mumsnetters who'd be bereft, because going on social media to slag off transwomen, ridiculing them, talking about how pathetic and deluded they are, and sharing examples of trans 'crimes' and social transgressions, is obviously a satisfying and absorbing hobby for many of you.

It would have been if that’s what was actually happening. But it’s not so…

That's a good point. It's serious and important all right, but cogency and cohesion are pretty shaky. You could say the same about a lot of strongly-held beliefs, though. It'd be a fascinating case!

I can't remember, either, and I don't think it was an in-depth analysis. Too tired to re-read it now.

maybe you should just find some transgender people and tell them how they should think and feel about themselves, and how they should live their lives. They obviously just need telling by someone who's not transgender and has no idea what being transgender is like.

OMG, the irony of saying this to women (biologically female women, for avoidance of doubt) who are constantly being lectured on womanhood by biologically male 'women' 😳As a bonus the real death & rape threats, the forceful efforts to erase female lives from language and law, the naked hatred of women are reflected back in a monstrous DARVO projection that has no basis in fact but still seems to fool some suckers.

Enjoy your faux victimhood if that's all you've got to keep you warm.

Firstly, you are wrong in that posters don’t know people who have a transgender identity. That is a very weak argument that is premised on both ‘there are so few’ and ‘if you only knew my lovely friends/family member etc’.

But also, this post is pure emotional hyperbole.

“They obviously just need telling by someone who's not transgender and has no idea what being transgender is like.”

This above. I cannot believe posters still type out this kind of emoting. Gosh…. The hypocrisy! Really? Someone who has a transgender identity knows what the opposite sex that they claim to be ‘feels’ like?

The disconnect is strong in people who are repeating verbatim with little thought ill formed arguments from extreme transgender activists (those who campaign for gender to be treated as if it is sex). If you honestly think this argument is convincing, perhaps you search for why you parked your critical thinking and basic logic before repeating this statement.

“and sharing examples of trans 'crimes' and social transgressions”

Did you even think about why people are doing this? Firstly because statistics and language is hiding the crimes of male people, that show that male pattern criminality does not reduce at any stage of transition compared to the rest of the UK male population.

And secondly, because extreme activists argued for a sub group of these male people in the UK to have special privileges. One of which is that despite the evidence that they do not lose their male pattern criminality, that they are exempt from robust safeguarding principles.

But by all means, if you want, I and others can post the statistics to the thread so you and other readers can see this for yourself. Please ask.

However, your post is just meaningless sparple and hyperbole at this point.

It is not cogent, coherent or even consistent.

Hence all the emotional manipulation.