AIBU to suggest it is time to stop the pretence that people can transition?

[happydappy2]

I really feel gender ideology is a cult, that has totally warped some peoples minds. It brings so many problems to society I’m not sure it’s sustainable. It damages the health of young people, shortens their lives and often rips families apart. At what point do we say no, this is not healthy, it’s incredibly antisocial to expect everyone else to pretend you are the opposite sex when they can see you aren’t….for the good of society let’s stop this madness. Gender dysphoria exists yes but I don’t think we’re treating it in the best way. We don’t affirm that an anorexic patient is indeed too fat so why do we affirm people who think they are the opposite sex?

My husband and I could not reproduce. We are still female and male. He is of the sex that typically produces small gametes and I the large. The fact we could not produce children was due to a defect with one of us; one of us did not produce the gametes we should have done and that was investigated and treated as an abnormality. It does not make us less male or female. That is what the definition is- it is about the potential to reproduce whether or not one does or chooses not to.

Right, but kids can be gay/ bi in same way as they can be straight at that young age?

I’m a woman who can’t have children. I’m still a woman. I’m still of the class of humans who produce eggs and can carry a pregnancy. Just because I cannot, does not mean I’m not a woman. I do not get offended by any of this in the slightest. I’m a biological woman who unfortunately cannot have children.

How do you live “as the opposite sex”?

How do you know if the male person in the toilet has had surgery? Is on hormones? Is a fetishist who’s involving you in his fetish against your wish’s? Is a predatory? You can’t.

Neither of those things mean a person has changed sex, anyway.

Yanbu. We got it wrong. Well the politicians who brought in the idea you could transition in law did.

It is heartbreaking I've watched alot of stuff on destransitioners and I think the current model and the TRAs sell them a false ideal they can make you a 'cis' (their language not mine) woman or man. They need to find out if theres other factors causing how they feel before making that leap and understanding it could be the wrong. I can't imagine how hard it must be to try and go back again.

I agree it's a very difficult topic. I think there's confusion between sex (the biological reality - which isn't always clear cut) and gender, which is a social construct. I think it's sad that we're unaccepting of men who feel more feminine than is conventional, or of women who feel more male. If we were, I wonder if there'd be fewer people wanting medical intervention?

Pronouns are a part of language, and language belongs to everyone. For the words we speak and write to be understood and not garbage they must have clear definitions. Pronouns aren’t there for the choosing. They don’t exist to validate an identity or feelings.

And as soon as you start referring to a male person using female words you sow the seed that that male person is, in some undefined way, female.

Haven't RTFT, but yes, I agree and I think 'trans' boils down to a few categories:

1. People with gender dysphoria. No idea why this is pandered to and not treated like any other body dysphoria (ie a mental illness) with therapy. We don't play along with people with anorexia nor those who want to chop an arm off.

2. AGPs and other fetishists. Used to be rightly denounced and shamed. Now celebrated 🤮

3. Autistic people who equate not fitting in, to not fitting into their 'gender'.

4. A bizarre regression in sex stereotypes insinuating that if you're a girl and like climbing trees and short hair, then you must really be a boy and if you're a boy and want long hair and like pretty things, you must be a girl.

5. Internalised homophobia: person would rather be the opposite sex, but straight.

I’ve tried to steer clear of the debate, particularly at work, because it seems so politicised and almost quite risky to express an opinion.

But yes, I’ve always found it very odd. Exactly as others have said, we don’t agree with anorexics who think they’re fat. White people who decide to identify as an ethnic minority are (rightly) criticised. I’ve never understood how this is different.

I’m not sure how I feel about the surgery to be honest. I would be very upset and concerned if a close friend or family member wanted to undergo body modification of any other kind which was this extreme and irreversible, but when trans people do it we are supposed to celebrate it?

If people want to wear dresses or make up or grow their hair long then fine, I don’t have a problem with that at all. But I do have a problem with someone telling my daughter that if she chooses not to wear a dress / grow her hair long / wear make up then she must be a boy!

I suspect the majority of people probably feel like me but wouldn’t necessarily say it to anyone except their very closest friends (or anonymously online!)

Well there are very few TW who actually have bottom surgery.

The vast majority keep their penises.

Fewer than one in ten have surgery.

Your anecdotal account is not evidence.

And oddly enough, I do feel fairly vitriolic towards crowds of violent men in lippy and frocks who are carrying placards wishing rape and death upon women like me.

I have observed the whole trans cult (and as someone who has studied a lot of cults it is certainly a cult) I have been totally perplexed by this. How, intelligent people can have bought into something that goes against every ounce of instinct and common sense humans possess. How they can believe in something so obviously a lie, how they can have championed harm to both individuals and society.

I actually think it (together with the obsession in getting behind every cause going - often accompanied with little knowledge/critical thinking) is a way of filling a need for something bigger, to find a tribe with the same philosophy, for getting together with those of similar thoughts, to have (what you think are) your own thoughts affirmed. Religion used to fulfil this desire but has fallen out of favour amongst certain groups.

The attitude of being right, inability to logically explain, excommunication of heretics, blind faith. Universities are often places which enforce the cult of the day, limiting the thoughts theoretically the most intelligent.

Why do humans throughout history fall into this pattern time and time again. We need to understand this more to stop this apparent predisposition being exploited again and again.

We need some serious studies into this. Unfortunately the people who could do this have largely been captured - why do we think this is?

Do you really think this case was funded all the way to the Supreme Court on the basis of pronoun usage?! If all these chaps wanted was for people to call them she and they were content to stay out of female prisons, toilets, refuges, female sports and all women shortlists do you really think people would spend this much time and energy on it? We have been gaslit now for years by this ridiculous ideology and have had TRAs and their handmaidens minimising and mocking our concerns and even when the highest court in the land says we were right we STILL have people telling us to stop being silly and be kind. This is not just about calling a bloke in a wig and heels “she”!!!

They are not any of those things because they are children. Only the most questionable of adults think children have a sexuality of any kind.

I agree. I feel human ideals can be on a continuum. We can have some male characteristics and desires and some female characteristics and desires. It does not make us one thing.

And those who are questioning what the problem is with using pronouns, I suggest you read the following:

https://fairplayforwomen.com/pronouns/

Well said!

Why do characteristics and desires have to be “male” and “female”? This makes no sense to me. So if my son is gentle and kind and patient, he’s more female, is that what you’re saying? He can’t just be a boy who is gentle and kind and patient?

@Flybee Coincidentally, I've just read of a quote by Carlo Emilio Gadda (an Italian poet apparently) who said that pronouns are 'the lice of thought' because they introduce lazy thinking.

Firstly, none of this is relevant to the trans debate as there is no correlation between being trans and having a DSD.

Secondly, there is a very straightforward way of determining whether someone is male or female. Has the body developed on a pathway to producing small gametes/sperm (male) or large ones/eggs (female)? This will always be able to be determined, regardless of chromosomes/genetalia/etc.

I remember when you had a biological sex and a personality (which covered, likes, dislikes, your presentation etc). The whole concept of gender identity is entirely regressive for both men and women. I’m in my 40’s so not ancient, I don’t understand how any of this stuff was seen as progress. It looked like old fashioned bollocks to me.

When my DDs started secondary school, age 11, they both had to declare whether they were straight, gay, trans, bi, pan etc. This is age 11, 5 years before the age of consent. It's completely mad what's going on in secondary schools. The vast majority of my DDs friends said they were gay, bi or pan, but I just think that's because most of them are actually still asexual at that age, and still only hang out with other girls. Aside from the fact that I don't think any of them knew the meaning of any of the words anyway. I didn't have any feelings for either sex until I was about 14, and then pretty quickly realised I was straight.

People are thick? They don't like using their brain or maybe there is nothing to use.

What do you mean they "had to declare" it? To whom? For what purpose?