Does anyone else struggle with authority?

[Flowersinthehood]

Not as in 'end up in a riot van' struggle!
I suppose I've never liked being told what to do. I have struggled with employers over the years as there's sometimes no logic in their decision making at times. But I've never been sacked as I'm a really hard worker, and I pick things up quickly. Actually I forgot I was sacked for not following the rules in a call centre.
Yesterday I had a bit of a run in with my manager. I wanted them to let me finish off something but it had to be passed on to someone else, as is the protocol. I asked if I could just have one week more on it, and she said well that is not your decision to make. I do get that, but that sort of saying or message just makes me feel pure rage.
And I don't know where that rage comes from.
It's a bit like parking tickets. I just will not pay them. I call up and I appeal each one and it ends up going to court but it's like I can't surrender as I just don't agree with the money grabbing nature of it.
Yet I'm not like this with friends and family, I'm always described as laid back. I never complain in restaurants or scrimp on tips. I will do anything for anyone, if I see the point.
I comply with school rules for my children and speak to teachers with respect.
But when I was at school one year they had to set up a separate classroom and I would do all my work in there, as I couldn't be told what to do. I did all my work and got good grades but I needed to be the one to direct myself.
Does anyone else feel similar? I'm not autistic as far as I'm aware. I am kind of demand avoidant and I can't cope if I know people don't like me. It eats me away inside. I am not dominant in relationships. It's more institutional or work place stuff I struggle with.

“isn’t” was a typo,I meant to say “is” 🤦‍♀️

I also hate objects that have a word on them for what you put in them 😂 Will not have them in my house.

@LavenderBlue19 how about you put the labels on and tell the spices where they should go 😁
You're the boss.

Joking apart I have over 30 jars of spices and herbs and have to label them because I don't have the time to open them and sniff them every time I want to make a curry.

Re parking tickets - don't try and argue your way out of a parking fine in Tynemouth. It doesn't work
I paid for parking but the machine didn't issue a ticket and I got a £60 fine. I challenged it but it was pointless, so I paid. I wasn't prepared for it to go to court in case I lost.

I struggle. I have a manager who used to be a peer. We get on well. She doesn't work in my area at all - Im head of technology, shes the chief finance officer, and clearly finds it difficult. Her other heads are perhaps less experienced in their roles and she is also more able to do their jobs Most of the time its fine, but sometimes she treats me in a way that completely disempowers me and throws me for 6. I am not sure we'll make it through the next one

‘There are a LOT of people now who are ‘social justice warriors’, who enjoy fighting the authorities and the buzz of getting what they feel they’re entitled to (even if other people aren’t).’

right, but if people just followed authority all their lives and the people in ‘charge’ women would still be at home surrounded by babies while men - mainly white upper class men were making all the rules for everyone.

Questioning ‘authority’ when it’s clearly in the wrong is important.

Authority - in the form of a police officer raped and murdered woman. Authority in the form of Paratroopers murdered civilians. Authority in the form of the President of the USA seems to be bring us to the brink of WW3.

its not all about parking tickets, is it?

Questioning ‘authority’ when it’s clearly in the wrong is important.

I agree, but flouting authority just to be a PITA is childish and unnecessary.

I think this is pretty normal, and most of us hate being managed, particularly if it is by bad managers. I've noticed that over the years I've hated being managed and have had feelings of frustration and anger towards attempts to manage me, but that was when I had bad managers who piled the work on, micromanaged and were not supportive. I am much better when I am treated decently by management. I now have a manager who treats me like an adult, does not micromanage and is supportive. So I am now comfortable with being managed and work much better, because I'm not being treated like crap!

Yes, I grew up in care and I've been abused by those who had power over me, including doctors. I'm also ND and I have no bandwidth for nonsense or bureaucracy. I eventually left my career because the nonsense was taking over and I work for myself now, albeit in low paid tasks. I crave autonomy in my life and I hate being told what to do. I don't break the law so expect to be left alone. Scratch the surface and I'm massively rebellious at heart.

I am happy to be manged by a manager who asks me to do things. I hate being micromanaged.

Because she doesn't like being told what to do lol

Absolutely, challenging parking fines when you know you have broken the rules just comes across as entitled.

I remember many years ago reading in the local paper an indignant letter from a man who had been fined for parking on double yellows outside a city centre restaurant. He went on about how he regularly spent hundreds of pounds at the restaurant helping the local economy and that law enforcement/powers that be ought to have better things to do than persecute people like him. There was a multi storey car park a short walk away. He just came across as an arrogant entitled wanker.

I'm exactly like this. I can't stand being told what to do. I grew up in a very strict family with controlling parents and during my teenage years I was laser-focused on creating a life where no one would be able to tell me what to do. That's really been my sole ambition.

I was a very good, rule-abiding student in school because I enjoyed studying, I was good at it, and I saw the point of what the teachers told me to do. Like a PP I did insist on choosing my own set text for English A level but my English teacher (who I loved) just said yes immediately!

But in the world of work I've had huge issues with people trying to impose hierarchy on me, particularly in a disrespectful way. In an early temp job I was barked at by a bullying middle manager. After a couple of days of this I told him not to fucking speak to me, or anyone else, like that again, and walked out. In another job I pushed back against a particular task on the basis that it was an illogical waste of time. I think they were a bit surprised that a 23-year-old was saying no to her boss and I got a bit of "just do what you're told" but I escalated it to the level above him and they agreed with me. Because I was right.

Probably for the best that I spent most of the next decade self-employed - which brought a lot of its own stresses but the freedom of not having a boss was so important to me. By the time I returned to a staff job I was older and had proved myself sufficiently in my field that I wasn't necessarily expected to do as I was told. My role also involves a lot of personal autonomy - I wouldn't have taken it otherwise.

I don't think I'd have a problem with parking fines but I don't drive so this has never been put to the test.

Zooming out from my own life, I'm anti-authoritarian as a matter of political principle. Traditional institutions of power from the police to the clergy to the military to the political class have used and continue to use their authority to oppress, marginalise and control citizens. I've been on enough protests and done enough activism for any respect I ever had for them to have been utterly eroded. And yes, that burning sense of injustice the OP describes - I feel it all the time.

Fascinating and thought provoking thread.

I was brought up strictly, an only child, never really rocked the boat at school, but most of that came from fear of consequences - either punishment or rejection.

When I had my DS 30 years ago, I was falsely accused of harming him, and spent 18 months getting him out if the system, and a further 18 months being monitored and judged in Orwellian style.

When the first accusations were made, I was co-operative and confident that all the professionals involved were doing their jobs, and would, in my child's best interests, realise I was innocent and discover the truth of the matter. I even talked, initially at the insistence I needed legal representation, after all, I knew it was just a big misunderstanding.

The scales soon fell from my eyes however, and I was plunged into a Kafkaesque nightmare which has probably left me with lifelong CPTSD and paranoia which I try to keep under control.

The things that really destroyed my faith in authority were the declarations of opinions as fact about myself and my family that would, I feel, come under the heading of institutional gas-lighting. Any challenge, no matter how politely or logically couched, was dismissed due to my position in the hierarchy of the system - at the bottom and unworthy of consideration.

One professional conducted interviews with friends and family, which were supposed to be kept from me. One friend divulged that this professional asked if I'd always had a problem with authority. And I really hadn't until authority trampled all over me and made what should have been, and was, the happiest time of my life, a complete nightmare that divested me of every scrap of control or autonomy over my own life. It was complete psychological torture.

I dealt with it by educating myself so I could question everything, on the medical and ideological fronts, and boy, did it get me into trouble as I started using "their" language back at them etc.

Even though I was co-operative on every practical level, it was the questioning and challenging that was always the issue. The truth, which was my goal, was absolutely sidelined by those in charge, who focused entirely on my disrespectful attitude.

What irks me about alot of people in authority is the inflexible and assumptive attitude they adopt and employ to intimidate, and the way they will double down to ridiculous lengths to prove their point even in the face of contradictory evidence.

I'm world weary of it now, as I have since had to deal with similar in the context of my elderly parents. I can't "fight City Hall" as my late DP would say, but I do have the confidence of age and accumulated knowledge to stand my ground, even though it's often pointless. But at least I know I've done what I can.

I spent most of the next decade self-employed - which brought a lot of its own stresses but the freedom of not having a boss was so important to me.

Didn't you find that you just exchaged your boss for customers who effectively became your "boss"?

I so can relate to this
grew up in a fair but strict family , expected to do as I was told and I did , ditto school , briefly pondered joining the forces but knew I wouldn’t take orders well , brought up to respect authority and I do BUT when I have been pulled over in my car on a couple of occasions I turn into a complete arse - it’s like I’ve been possessed 😂

Its tough when you are required to follow instructions that are not logical or reasonable to you. However, you rarely get anywhere by failing to comply on an individual level. The best approach is, where you can, offer a polite and constructive alternative. Offer it once then if it's rejected, back off and do as you're told on that occasion. Meanwhile, you can be focusing your efforts on a bigger level behind the scenes. So if it's a work thing and it happens a lot, how can you progress to a position where you can input into decisions? Or should you look for another job that better aligns with your approach? Where its something like wider rules and regulations, is it an unjust system that is more detrimental to more people than is balanced by the benefits? Can you join campaigns to get it changed?

@Flowersinthehood I think it is quite likely you are neurodiverse (ADHD or ASD or both). Do your child's special needs involve neurodiversity? Having to have a separate classroom just for you is very, very unusual, as is running away if you didn't get your own way.

If you like your manager and care about the effect you are having on them, couldn't you make life easier on them to be kind?

It's interesting to see the patterns in people's responses and experiences in this thread.

One thing that occurs to me is there's a sense of cognitive dissonance about how we are educated and trained to be critical thinkers and told to have confidence in ourselves, then in situations where we apply that, we get punished for it. This, I think, is what causes long term issues for people, the sense of doing what one has been primed to do, especially in the context of injustice etc, then being told that actually that's wrong.

The client relationship is completely different to the employer one.

It's self-selecting to an extent - I marketed myself on the basis of what I specifically did well. My clients tended to want me for my individual way of doing things. There was also a lot of opportunity for dialogue, and as they respected my professional expertise I never once had an instance where I was being told to do something with no explanation. In other words, I was the authority, and that's why they were coming to me.

The nature of my work meant clients rarely micro-managed. The work would be commissioned, the deadline would be set and then I'd be left alone until I completed it.

If a client was rude, bossy or unpleasant to deal with, I had the freedom not to work with them again.

I also didn't have to deal with the hierarchy of a large company - it's probably more accurate to say I have a problem with hierarchy rather than authority per se. I ran my company on my own so I knew exactly why I needed to take X and Y decisions, even if they were annoying. Being self-employed, you're fully in control.

I have a milder version of this (as in I wouldn’t refuse to pay a fine) but the inner rage at being told what to do is real (especially if it doesn’t make that much sense and could be done ‘my’ way). I even mentioned in a post recently that I don’t like being told what to do. It’s one of the reasons I won’t have a relationship anymore because I don’t want someone else telling me to do something. I’m in a lucky position where I don’t absolutely have to work, though it would be nice to have a bit extra coming in, but when I go for an interview I realise I can’t have someone else dictate my day, so I’ve scrapped the job hunting for now. I’m not arrogant though, it’s all inner rage and no one would be aware.

@NotTheBossOfTheWorld I am never rude, but I just really really don't like it. I know that's not reasonable, but it makes me think all sorts of irrational things (quitting, doing it anyway, asking for a change of manager) which I don't act on and I can reflect they are unreasonable. That's why I need space, I have my appraisals on zoom and I tend to email so I can think my response through rather than saying something I regret or crying. I just really care about what I do 'passionate' but it can move into 'over invested' if I don't check in with myself.

It’s one of the reasons I won’t have a relationship anymore because I don’t want someone else telling me to do something.

@BunnyLake You must have met some really unpleasant people. DH never tells me what to do. He asks.

And yes there is neurodivergence in the family, my bio dad has never worked as he couldn't tolerate authority. I didn't grow up with him and so it must be genetic. My DCs have supposed ADHD but I think it's over diagnosed these days.

@RampantIvy I know it's hard to understand but pretty much everything in a relationship feels like a demand. Say I make a plan with my ex to watch a film, get a take away, and then a friend invites me for a pint and I want to do that instead; those original plans feel like a demand, and then I become resentful, I just don't think some of us suit monogamy.

Well they are all ex’s now😁. Yes, one instance, which is pretty minor, but can still spark up rage, was when my ex (children’s father and my final relationship) grabbed a magazine out my hand, flung it across the room and told me to stop reading as I read too much (books and magazines in those days). It absolutely enraged me that I couldn't just be left in peace to read (kids were otherwise safely occupied). This would be nearly 20 years ago now but it can still raise my blood pressure. That was just one of many things.