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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Aibu to drop racist student

260 replies

HeadacheEarthquake · 21/02/2025 00:36

Aibu to run a mile
Yes YABU teach her to behave
YaNBU - run away and find new clients

I am currently teaching a pensioner to the tune of £320 a month to play piano and violin

She has often referred to German composers as "Krauts" and French composers as "Frogs". She does not know I am part French.

I assumed this might be generational and have gently discouraged it but this weeknsje used the terms "gayboys" when referring to some local salon owners after a breezy conversation about nail polish then went on to remark thay the ABRSM books always seem to "have to have a coloured on the front"

I said "does that matter" and she was visibly shaken and messed up her piece terribly.

I want to end the lessons with her but would like to know whether anyone would consider paying something and appealing to her better nature and having a conversation about appropriate manner in lessons rather than just writing them off.

Yours,

A multinational teacher in turmoil.

OP posts:
HeadacheEarthquake · 21/02/2025 11:30

TeaAndStrumpets · 21/02/2025 11:19

OP are you projecting your hatred of your mother onto your pupil?

No, I save that for therapy after she attacked me for the last time. I don't hate her, I hate racism. That's another thread.

OP posts:
thepariscrimefiles · 21/02/2025 11:31

Uppitymuppity · 21/02/2025 01:22

Id see this as a generational thing and continue to earn a decent wage, you're there to teach her not parent her. Id like to see how many of the posters saying you should drop her actually would irl.

I'm a pensioner and I used to work with colleagues who were the same age or older than me. We would never dream of using such awful terms to describe gay people and people of different nationalities/ethnicities. In addition to it being socially/morally unacceptable, we would have been disciplined and possibly lost our jobs for doing this. It isn't a generational thing and it's not acceptable for older people to come out with such unacceptable racist, xenophobic and homophobic views.

TheignT · 21/02/2025 11:33

hydriotaphia · 21/02/2025 10:22

Go with your gut, and you shouldn't have to feel uncomfortable at work. However, if you wanted, I do think there is room for the benefit of the doubt.

Frog and Kraut are not on a level with racist slurs imho. I am obviously not going around using these terms or endorsing them, but I think that some older people would consider using language like that regarding England's neighbours to be more in the way of acceptable teasing than anything else. More like how someone from Yorkshire might refer disparagingly to someone from Lancashire than genuine racism.

"Gayboy" yes is obviously homophobic, and I would be shocked to hear it from someone under about 50, but if she is not suggesting any hostility towards gay people, she may have spoken the term out of a genuine lack of understanding about how people are 'supposed' to refer to a sexuality which would have been taboo and sniggered about when she was growing up.

"Coloured" is obviously unacceptable and racist language, BUT it is language which I have heard older people use while grasping for the correct term without any racist intent (perhaps simply not understanding the distinction between "people of colour" and "coloured").

I hate the use of people of colour. Smacks of slavery times when a black person who wasn't a slave was referred to as a free person of colour. I don't understand why that became the acceptable term.

TheignT · 21/02/2025 11:40

HeadacheEarthquake · 21/02/2025 09:34

I think that's what I will go with - she is due a new book, so I imagine the comment will come again.

It took me back to a heated row with my own mother, who I no longer talk to where she complained that tv shows now have to have black people on to be woke. One British show was ALL black people, and that's taking it too far in her opinion.

To the PP that said about living in a bubble, can you direct me to said bubble? It sounds nice for a break from the vitriol that seems the unapologetic norm from many angles

Oh and PP that said "we all laughed at Little Britain" ... no, not all of us laughed at it, some of us found it disgusting at the time!

Too true. In my 70s and found it offensive in so many ways.

HeadacheEarthquake · 21/02/2025 11:40

Fairislesweater · 21/02/2025 06:44

Any chance of a link to that thread?

OP if I were in your shoes I’d tell her I find her language offensive, give her a chance to change it before dropping her. Some people genuinely seem to live under a rock (my mum was a good example of someone who used very outdated terminology eg coloured because she had no idea it was no longer acceptable). But it’s up to you of course.

Bothered but am I over reacting ? | Mumsnet

Enjoy

OP posts:
HeadacheEarthquake · 21/02/2025 11:49

HeadacheEarthquake · 21/02/2025 11:40

Tutor canceled lessons! | Mumsnet

Sorry, no It's this one!

OP posts:
thepariscrimefiles · 21/02/2025 11:49

Lettuceandbroccolisoup · 21/02/2025 09:12

"The poster saying seek legal advice?!"

I'm glad you see it as a joke.

You asked for advice, and I've given it. You do what you like with it. Just don't come back here in 6 months saying that you're in the middle of a discrimination case.

Nowadays people get into trouble for "discrimination" at the drop of a hat. We have people in prison for "hurty words" on social media.
I don't think this pupil will initiate any legal action, but she might have a son/daughter who won't be enamoured with you refusing lessons on the grounds that she's "racist"

Remember the Christian bakers and the gay wedding cake debacle ??

Edited

By being jailed for 'hurty words', I assume that you really mean being jailed for incitement to violence and murder, such as setting fire to hotels housing asylum seekers.

People in the UK also used to use the term 'coloureds' to describe people from a minority ethnic background/heritage. It was racist then and it's racist now.

Also, considering the history of apartheid and the fact that most white South Africans were racist, I'm not sure why you are using the fact that you think that OP's pupil is white South African as a 'get out of jail free' card.

CaptainMyCaptain · 21/02/2025 11:54

Lettuceandbroccolisoup · 21/02/2025 09:46

I would dispute that the pupil is "racist".

The fact that she uses the words "coloureds" tells me she's originally from South Africa and has probably come back to retire here.

I think OP hasn't given the full info here.

If she was racist she's have said "darkies", "blacks" or "n***s."

People in the UK used to use the term 'coloured'. Some still do sometimes because they think it is more polite than black. It doesn't suggest she is South African at all.

TheignT · 21/02/2025 11:59

That is interesting. Bit like my gay colleague who would use the term gay boys or my disabled husband and his friend who would refer to themselves as lollipop men (men on sticks) which I thought was horrible but they'd just say well we are.

I think the age thing is also interesting, as if some of us grew up in an all white world. I lived in a poor inner city area basically we were all immigrants Irish, Indian, Caribbean, Turkish. The list goes on. In my road we had a Gurdwara, in walking distance Catholic Church, Church of England church as well as many other Christian denominations, an Orthodox Synagogue and a Mosque. The 50s were pretty multicultural where I was my black husband grew up in an area of the same city which was almost exclusively white. My mixed race kids grew up in a much less diverse place than I did.

The world is more complicated than we sometimes realise.

JHound · 21/02/2025 12:00

Why is this even a question?

Unless you are desperate for money? I cut racist people out of my life without a second thought (unless there was some important reason I could not).

If I did not need the money I would decline to have her as a client.

JHound · 21/02/2025 12:02

leopardprintanduggs · 21/02/2025 00:49

Has she expressed actual negative feelings towards those groups of people, other than using non-PC terminology? It sounds like she is using old fashioned language that is rooted in racism, rather than speaking offensively about other races and cultures. So, is she actually racist or using language 'of her time'? Perhaps no one has expressly called her out for using those terms and she doesn't recognise how offensive they can actually be. I'd take a first step of writing her an email expressing that while she might not mean to offend, you don't feel comfortable with certain language that in this day and age js racist. See what her reaction her, maybe it will bring her up to speed and if not you can cut your losses.

There is always one….

JHound · 21/02/2025 12:07

Also why do people keep using age as an excuse?

There are plenty of bigoted young people and open minded elderly people.

If she had observed “there always seems to be a coloured on the cover” and was 21 would suddenly be an issue but not at 70.

And why is somebody’s sexuality relevant to a discussion about hair?

Lettuceandbroccolisoup · 21/02/2025 12:07

CaptainMyCaptain · 21/02/2025 11:54

People in the UK used to use the term 'coloured'. Some still do sometimes because they think it is more polite than black. It doesn't suggest she is South African at all.

That's your opinion, which I am entitled to disagree with.

JHound · 21/02/2025 12:08

5128gap · 21/02/2025 09:12

You're missing the point. Even if we reach deep for an excuse as to why a woman living in the UK may somehow have escaped the fact that 'coloured' is not an appropriate term, that doesn't explain why she felt the need to comment on a black person being on the front of the book in the first place. I'm guessing she wasn't saying "isn't it great that the book reflects the diversity of our society", but rather either blatantly complaining, because she doesn't want to see people of colour represented, or that sly hinting people do to open up a racist rant with the like minded.

This!

People getting hung up on the term “coloured” but it would not have been better had she said “black”.

JHound · 21/02/2025 12:09

CurlewKate · 21/02/2025 09:21

The lengths Mumsnetters will go to defend racists never fails to amaze me.

Prosecco Stormfront. For the win.

AnnaAkhmatova · 21/02/2025 12:10

It is quite possible to use some of the money you earn from this client to donate to a charity that works with refugees/asylum seekers.

That way some good will come from the situation.

I think it can be useful to have difficult conversations with family, friends and perhaps colleagues. I am in favour of a more transactional, boundaried approach with clients.

JHound · 21/02/2025 12:10

Lettuceandbroccolisoup · 21/02/2025 09:12

"The poster saying seek legal advice?!"

I'm glad you see it as a joke.

You asked for advice, and I've given it. You do what you like with it. Just don't come back here in 6 months saying that you're in the middle of a discrimination case.

Nowadays people get into trouble for "discrimination" at the drop of a hat. We have people in prison for "hurty words" on social media.
I don't think this pupil will initiate any legal action, but she might have a son/daughter who won't be enamoured with you refusing lessons on the grounds that she's "racist"

Remember the Christian bakers and the gay wedding cake debacle ??

Edited

Sexual orientation is a protected characteristic.

Saying racist things is not.

Blueberry911 · 21/02/2025 12:21

I'm dying laughing at the person who told you it would be discrimination against racists to stop teaching her 😂

Lettuceandbroccolisoup · 21/02/2025 12:26

Blueberry911 · 21/02/2025 12:21

I'm dying laughing at the person who told you it would be discrimination against racists to stop teaching her 😂

Where was that said?

CurlewKate · 21/02/2025 12:27

@TheignT "That is interesting. Bit like my gay colleague who would use the term gay boys or my disabled husband and his friend who would refer to themselves as lollipop men (men on sticks) which I thought was horrible but they'd just say well we are."

Almost there. We only need someone whose black husband thinks being called Sambo by his colleagues is such a joke/collects gollywogs.

Lettuceandbroccolisoup · 21/02/2025 12:28

@JHound "Sexual orientation is a protected characteristic.
Saying racist things is not."

No but it's classed as 'hate speech'.

thepariscrimefiles · 21/02/2025 12:40

Lettuceandbroccolisoup · 21/02/2025 12:26

Where was that said?

You were the person talking about the pupil being able to submit a case for discrimination if OP stops teaching her:

"You asked for advice, and I've given it. You do what you like with it. Just don't come back here in 6 months saying that you're in the middle of a discrimination case.
Nowadays people get into trouble for "discrimination" at the drop of a hat. We have people in prison for "hurty words" on social media.
I don't think this pupil will initiate any legal action, but she might have a son/daughter who won't be enamoured with you refusing lessons on the grounds that she's "racist"
Remember the Christian bakers and the gay wedding cake debacle ??"

As another poster has said, being a racist isn't a protected characteristic unlike sexual orientation, so it's unlikely that OP's pupil, or her pupil's imaginary children, would have a case.

5128gap · 21/02/2025 12:45

Lettuceandbroccolisoup · 21/02/2025 12:28

@JHound "Sexual orientation is a protected characteristic.
Saying racist things is not."

No but it's classed as 'hate speech'.

You seem confused. Are you misunderstanding "it's unlawful to discriminate on the grounds of race" as "its unlawful to discriminate on the grounds of racism" perhaps...?

Lettuceandbroccolisoup · 21/02/2025 12:51

@thepariscrimefiles "As another poster has said, being a racist isn't a protected characteristic unlike sexual orientation, so it's unlikely that OP's pupil, or her pupil's imaginary children, would have a case"

As I've already said the whole argument is moot because we don't know:

a) if the OP is going to actually stop tutoring her
b) what reason she is going to give for stopping lessons

There was a thread somewhere where a sports club refused to host a child's party without giving a reason. The mother was convinced it was because she was Islamic and thought it was some kind of discrimination.

Mirabai · 21/02/2025 12:54

TempestTost · 21/02/2025 10:51

Some of these things are quite interesting in terms of a development of language element.

There are of course words for groups that are intended to be derogatory, some started that way and some became insults over time.

But words like "coloured" didn't really have that kind of natural evolution at all. It was never derogatory in its meaning. It was literally a matter of, a few people decided it was old fashioned, they wanted a new word that would have no baggage, and they told people to stop using the old word. It was very much based on theories about changing language to change attitudes. And in these cases, it was not picked up by everyone in the group, either - there were significant numbers of people who continued to use the old words for themselves without issue until that generation passed away.

It would be more accurate to say words like that were archaic, or old fashioned, rather than racist or derogatory. Except that wouldn't fit with the underlying purpose of those who push such changes, which seems to be to designate new in and out groups.

Words like "Frogs" or "Krauts" are similar in that they were not actually derogatory in themselves, any more than "limey" is. They were nicknames, typically used by the working classes. (They are also, now, somewhat old fashioned.) Using nicknames and substitution words was until fairly recently(and even now among certain groups, interestingly mainly racially united groups, my partner's wc Caribbean family has a ton of these kinds of terms) a significant component of wc language - including nicknames for individuals. In my father's generation for example, more than half of his friends were referred to by nicknames - some were related to something about the person, maybe an incident that had occured - others were standardized, for example guys with the last name Miller were always called Dusty in our area. You similarly see a lot of affectionate pet names among the wc people (luvie, duckie, etc)

Frankly, I think a lot of the inability to differentiate between racist language and the language traditions of differernt social classes comes down to class elitism, and it's the whole point of pushing ever-changing "correct" language and designating previously inoffensive language (or even correct in the case of coloured) - it's to be able to catch people out who can't keep up.

The people who get worked up about this stuff are typically the same people who are upset when some wc nurse calls them by a pet name when she gives them a shot, or who insist that someone shortening their child's name is deeply offensive. (Noteworthy that wc nicknames are not chosen or approved of by the person being named.) It comes from a middle class sensibility around language that will not in a million years be tolerant about language traditions of the working classes, because so much of being aspirationally middle class requires not being mistaken for that sort of person.

It’s hard to know if this is naive or disingenuous.