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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Aibu to drop racist student

260 replies

HeadacheEarthquake · 21/02/2025 00:36

Aibu to run a mile
Yes YABU teach her to behave
YaNBU - run away and find new clients

I am currently teaching a pensioner to the tune of £320 a month to play piano and violin

She has often referred to German composers as "Krauts" and French composers as "Frogs". She does not know I am part French.

I assumed this might be generational and have gently discouraged it but this weeknsje used the terms "gayboys" when referring to some local salon owners after a breezy conversation about nail polish then went on to remark thay the ABRSM books always seem to "have to have a coloured on the front"

I said "does that matter" and she was visibly shaken and messed up her piece terribly.

I want to end the lessons with her but would like to know whether anyone would consider paying something and appealing to her better nature and having a conversation about appropriate manner in lessons rather than just writing them off.

Yours,

A multinational teacher in turmoil.

OP posts:
5128gap · 21/02/2025 09:58

Lettuceandbroccolisoup · 21/02/2025 09:24

Are you a solicitor?

No thought not 🙄

Rather than rolling your eyes, perhaps you'd like to provide me with the evidence that proves I'm wrong?

Lettuceandbroccolisoup · 21/02/2025 10:06

Magnastorm · 21/02/2025 09:49

It's pretty obvious you aren't.

Yes, I'm not the one making legal pronouncements

GLORIAGloriarse · 21/02/2025 10:07

What age group is she, as in late 60s, 90s? Also what culture ? Her language use is quite interesting, as in it's very dated and you wouldn't really expect to hear about Krauts or frogs now.

Could perhaps be a sign of dementia (frontal lobe damage) given that it's a strong pattern of inappropriate language.

If I take a rough age guess at 70s then I might expect some folk her age to complain about immigration etc but not really wartime stuff (if she was going to speak out of turn about anyone).

Is there a chance she's taking music lessons to help with her cognitive function? May not be the whole reason.

I know you're new to her and have every right to cancel lessons but it may be a valuable (if tricky) thing to raise.

Even gently but firmly 'im happy with your playing but I'm less happy with a few of the comments about Krauts and gayboys and so on. Those things aren't ok nowadays. How would you feel about toning those down?'.

Lettuceandbroccolisoup · 21/02/2025 10:11

5128gap · 21/02/2025 09:58

Rather than rolling your eyes, perhaps you'd like to provide me with the evidence that proves I'm wrong?

See my post of 7.17.

I don't have to prove anything to you and as we don't know what the OP has said/is planning to say we don't know if there is a case to answer at this stage.

That's why I suggested legal advice.

The courts are full of people who never thought they'd get sued,

HeadacheEarthquake · 21/02/2025 10:16

The MU are more than capable of doing this for me should she attempt to claim discrimination after using discriminatory language herself.

OP posts:
hydriotaphia · 21/02/2025 10:22

Go with your gut, and you shouldn't have to feel uncomfortable at work. However, if you wanted, I do think there is room for the benefit of the doubt.

Frog and Kraut are not on a level with racist slurs imho. I am obviously not going around using these terms or endorsing them, but I think that some older people would consider using language like that regarding England's neighbours to be more in the way of acceptable teasing than anything else. More like how someone from Yorkshire might refer disparagingly to someone from Lancashire than genuine racism.

"Gayboy" yes is obviously homophobic, and I would be shocked to hear it from someone under about 50, but if she is not suggesting any hostility towards gay people, she may have spoken the term out of a genuine lack of understanding about how people are 'supposed' to refer to a sexuality which would have been taboo and sniggered about when she was growing up.

"Coloured" is obviously unacceptable and racist language, BUT it is language which I have heard older people use while grasping for the correct term without any racist intent (perhaps simply not understanding the distinction between "people of colour" and "coloured").

CurlewKate · 21/02/2025 10:25

It's odd that the only time older people get any benefit of the doubt at all on Mumsnet is when they are racist!

izimbra · 21/02/2025 10:29

To everyone here who is saying that a person using deeply contemptuous and abusive language to talk about minorities says nothing about their actual attitudes towards minorities, can you hear yourself?

Magnastorm · 21/02/2025 10:30

Lettuceandbroccolisoup · 21/02/2025 10:06

Yes, I'm not the one making legal pronouncements

Just disagreeing with people who are correct.

AnnaAkhmatova · 21/02/2025 10:38

I think that the heavy promotion of a particular brands of DEI is something that can be questioned without that making the questioner a wicked person.

I am learning a language via a popular app. The characters in the app include a teenage girl in a pink hijab, a man in a turban, a young woman with an Afro, a possibly Turkish man. A high proportion of the relationships cited are same sex. It feels relentlessly American 'woke' rather than connecting particularly with the culture of the country whose language I am learning. So, arguably, rather imperialist.

Mirabai · 21/02/2025 10:42

@EdithBond IMHO it’s always better to challenge racism,

There speaks a white person.

TempestTost · 21/02/2025 10:51

Barrenfieldoffucks · 21/02/2025 07:24

Yes. It wasn't that long ago that I was told to say 'coloured people' instead of black etc in teacher training.

Some of these things are quite interesting in terms of a development of language element.

There are of course words for groups that are intended to be derogatory, some started that way and some became insults over time.

But words like "coloured" didn't really have that kind of natural evolution at all. It was never derogatory in its meaning. It was literally a matter of, a few people decided it was old fashioned, they wanted a new word that would have no baggage, and they told people to stop using the old word. It was very much based on theories about changing language to change attitudes. And in these cases, it was not picked up by everyone in the group, either - there were significant numbers of people who continued to use the old words for themselves without issue until that generation passed away.

It would be more accurate to say words like that were archaic, or old fashioned, rather than racist or derogatory. Except that wouldn't fit with the underlying purpose of those who push such changes, which seems to be to designate new in and out groups.

Words like "Frogs" or "Krauts" are similar in that they were not actually derogatory in themselves, any more than "limey" is. They were nicknames, typically used by the working classes. (They are also, now, somewhat old fashioned.) Using nicknames and substitution words was until fairly recently(and even now among certain groups, interestingly mainly racially united groups, my partner's wc Caribbean family has a ton of these kinds of terms) a significant component of wc language - including nicknames for individuals. In my father's generation for example, more than half of his friends were referred to by nicknames - some were related to something about the person, maybe an incident that had occured - others were standardized, for example guys with the last name Miller were always called Dusty in our area. You similarly see a lot of affectionate pet names among the wc people (luvie, duckie, etc)

Frankly, I think a lot of the inability to differentiate between racist language and the language traditions of differernt social classes comes down to class elitism, and it's the whole point of pushing ever-changing "correct" language and designating previously inoffensive language (or even correct in the case of coloured) - it's to be able to catch people out who can't keep up.

The people who get worked up about this stuff are typically the same people who are upset when some wc nurse calls them by a pet name when she gives them a shot, or who insist that someone shortening their child's name is deeply offensive. (Noteworthy that wc nicknames are not chosen or approved of by the person being named.) It comes from a middle class sensibility around language that will not in a million years be tolerant about language traditions of the working classes, because so much of being aspirationally middle class requires not being mistaken for that sort of person.

Timetodustofftheplaystation · 21/02/2025 10:56

izimbra · 21/02/2025 10:29

To everyone here who is saying that a person using deeply contemptuous and abusive language to talk about minorities says nothing about their actual attitudes towards minorities, can you hear yourself?

Are the Germans and French minorities, in your opinion? The British, the English?

TempestTost · 21/02/2025 11:04

5128gap · 21/02/2025 08:40

Interesting that all the people defending the 'innocent old lady, who doesn't KNOW!!!' are choosing to focus on her uses of outdated terms for other Europeans rather than on her 'observation' about people of colour being on the front of a book. Anyone defending her care to explain what that's about if it's not based in racism? Why does she think that a black person on a book cover is worth commenting about? Just a person surely?

The OP hasn't really expanded on this, but it seems like a particular series, and her comment was that the covers now always seem to have non-white people of some sort on them.

The question to ask before saying "is that racist" is, is it true? Do they now have a lot of non-white people on them? More than they used to, or maybe more than is reflective of the general population?

Because if so, her comment is accurate, and saying it is racist to mention an accurate observation like that is something that is going to lead to bigger problems.

The appropriate response to a comment like that would be to take it at face value - "Yes, those books are published in XYZ place where there are many people of X background." "Yes, they seem to be trying to increase the diversity of the models, maybe to reflect population changes, what do you think?" "Yes, there is a large % of piano students these days who aren't ethnically English, isn't that interesting that many people from non-European cultures are learning these instruments while many families are getting away from having kids learn an instrument compared to the past."

CurlewKate · 21/02/2025 11:11

@Barrenfieldodducks
" It wasn't that long ago that I was told to say 'coloured people' instead of black etc in teacher training"
Well, it was quite a long time ago if you think about it, isn't it? Time does fly....

saraclara · 21/02/2025 11:12

Spirallingdownwards · 21/02/2025 08:35

Unless she is pushing 100 it isn't a generational thing. Anyone in their 80s and under knows exactly that these are slurs.

That's really not true. People lead different types of lives, end have different education, professional and family influences. So some learn more quickly then others because they're exposed to newer thinking.

My MIL was not remotely racist. Quite the opposite. But she said coloured because she'd been taught that it was the polite term. She lived in a pit village where she really didn't come across the same influences that my mum (a much less nice person) came across in her middle class environment and her career in education. My mum was probably the racist, she just knew not to use the words.

Porcuporpoise · 21/02/2025 11:13

Lettuceandbroccolisoup · 21/02/2025 10:11

See my post of 7.17.

I don't have to prove anything to you and as we don't know what the OP has said/is planning to say we don't know if there is a case to answer at this stage.

That's why I suggested legal advice.

The courts are full of people who never thought they'd get sued,

Honestly you sound more ridiculous with every post. The OP does not need legal advice in order to drop a client who uses derogatory language including derogatory terms for people of her own heritage.

If the courts are full of cases of people being sued for this perhaps you could point to just one?

Lettuceandbroccolisoup · 21/02/2025 11:14

HeadacheEarthquake · 21/02/2025 10:16

The MU are more than capable of doing this for me should she attempt to claim discrimination after using discriminatory language herself.

That's OK then.

Let's hope it doesn't come to that.

TeaAndStrumpets · 21/02/2025 11:14

@TempestTost Great post. It does remind me of U and non U...eg saying serviette instead of napkin could betray your lower class origins. I know it was all a load of tosh but made a valid point about how some people are insecure about their language usage. Then it was a fear of seeming "common". Nowadays there is a fear of "causing offence" whether a word is actually offensive or not.

GETTINGLIKEMYMOTHER · 21/02/2025 11:15

Personally I’d just tell her that such terms are just not acceptable nowadays, you find them offensive, and you’re afraid you’ll have to discontinue her lessons unless she agrees to stop using them.

HeadacheEarthquake · 21/02/2025 11:16

TempestTost · 21/02/2025 11:04

The OP hasn't really expanded on this, but it seems like a particular series, and her comment was that the covers now always seem to have non-white people of some sort on them.

The question to ask before saying "is that racist" is, is it true? Do they now have a lot of non-white people on them? More than they used to, or maybe more than is reflective of the general population?

Because if so, her comment is accurate, and saying it is racist to mention an accurate observation like that is something that is going to lead to bigger problems.

The appropriate response to a comment like that would be to take it at face value - "Yes, those books are published in XYZ place where there are many people of X background." "Yes, they seem to be trying to increase the diversity of the models, maybe to reflect population changes, what do you think?" "Yes, there is a large % of piano students these days who aren't ethnically English, isn't that interesting that many people from non-European cultures are learning these instruments while many families are getting away from having kids learn an instrument compared to the past."

If it had been said in a manner which seemed supportive of more representation of different races being on the covers of these books then I'd have probably joined in enthusiastically to say it's a good thing in my opinion.

It was the sigh, eye roll and disdain for what I think she sees as white people being removed in favour of black people as some sort of attack or attempt to erase them - again probably based on the hideous arguments I used to have with my mother, who made Braverman and Farage look tolerant despite being of mixed ethnicity herself and also an immigrant

OP posts:
AnnaAkhmatova · 21/02/2025 11:19

@TempestTost, there is all sorts of interesting stuff about classical music tuition. Essentially it's dying out in the state educational system - which disadvantages anyone from a poorer background-while musicology, the academic study of the classical canon is under attack for being white, elitist etc. University music departments are being shut down and subsidies for opera and symphony orchestras are being cut. It is within this wider context that music teaching materials are being rebranded. 'We are an artform that is under threat, but we are hoping that if we change the artwork a bit that will save us.' The question of whether there's actually an increasing ethnic diversity of students leaning to play classical instruments is an interesting one. But I think a lot comes down to money both in terms of tuition and aso re career prospects.

TeaAndStrumpets · 21/02/2025 11:19

OP are you projecting your hatred of your mother onto your pupil?

Lettuceandbroccolisoup · 21/02/2025 11:19

Porcuporpoise · 21/02/2025 11:13

Honestly you sound more ridiculous with every post. The OP does not need legal advice in order to drop a client who uses derogatory language including derogatory terms for people of her own heritage.

If the courts are full of cases of people being sued for this perhaps you could point to just one?

If you don't like my posts then don't read them.😃

a client who uses derogatory language including derogatory terms for people of her own heritage.

and what 'heritage' would that be? The OP hasn't said what "heritage" this pupil is.

If the courts are full of cases of people being sued for this perhaps you could point to just one?

What is the "this" you are talking about.

TheignT · 21/02/2025 11:22

HeadacheEarthquake · 21/02/2025 01:21

That's interesting to hear - as I said earlier she only had good things to say about their services. I'm very torn.

Do you know how they refer to themselves? I'm retired but worked with someone who referred to himself and his husband like that.