To be disgusted at the talks between Russia and the US

[SunnyDayInFeb]

So Russia and the US are meeting in Saudia Arabia to carve up Ukraine.

And Ukraine, whose people have been fighting and dying since their country was invaded, haven't even been invited to the table.

It's like we are back in the 19th century with the European colonial powers drawing lines on a map to divide Africa between them.

@MargaretThursday do you mean they might fight if the UK were invaded or in the context of a wider Eastern or central European war?

There are literally hundred and hundreds off forums
There are also extremely left wing posts on mn there were seemingly momentum nuts on here when corybn was around.
And??

@MargaretThursday having political discussions and awareness is fairly removed from the reality of fighting. It's also quite common to have strong political opinions at that age.

Plus @gatheryerosebuds question too

This.

All these posts saying they would ‘refuse’ to fight… come on!! You would be ordered to, and if you refused you would be jailed or firing squad. It’s hideous but the alternative is even more hideous.

I would do whatever was asked of me, as a female I don’t know what that would be, but I know snivelling about being made to do things at a time of national emergency is just downright selfish.

@Wildflowers99
I think there would be a huge amount of resistance if conscription were considered.
There would also be a significant rise in "disabilities" and certainly genuine mental health issues.

Conscription would never work in the UK.

Personally I agree. Today’s young people are nowhere near as physically and mentally robust as young people in the 1940s.

@Wildflowers99 I'm sure doing stuff as a woman but not fighting is more palatable

Being canon fodder on oth, do you have dc at the relevant age?

I can see why young people are not so malleable to fight for rich leaders who will be fine. And it's not just about being robust.

I don't think this stuff gets you much of an exemption in practice. A war means that the legal status of what happens to you as a citizen is very different. If you thought CoVid was a challenge, war gives governments the kind of power that will make you go grey overnight.

So what’s the alternative then? In posts like yours you seem to think the alternative is saying ‘keep us out of it folks’ and all the involved countries just nodding sagely. It’s madness. If we passively refused to engage we would be forcibly invaded further down the line as a soft target. Would that be better?

@Wildflowers99 tbf I don't know what will happen next.

US security is a big deal to all leaders, and I'm not sure if they'll give it.

I guess we'll see in the next few days.

Well maybe not days. But a run and some dc stuff later it looks like Zelenskyy has been advised to sign.

'Lord Peter Mandelson, the British Ambassador to the US, told Volodymyr Zelensky to return to the White House to mend his rift with Donald Trump and to sign the US-Ukraine rare minerals deal'

Starmer says that having spoken to Donald Trump last night, he wouldn't be pursuing this plan (work up a proposed peace deal with Ukraine, France and other European countries, then present to the US), if he didn't think it could yield success

From the BBC

We've just heard from UK Prime Minister Sir Keir Starmer following the summit in London where leaders from Europe, Canada and Turkey met to discuss working together for the security of Ukraine and the continent as a whole.

Starmer said "we are at a crossroads in history," and unveiled the following plans:

The UK, France and others have agreed to work with Ukraine on a plan to stop the fighting - this plan will be discussed with the US and together they will take the plan forward

During the summit, four points were agreed: To keep military aid flowing into Ukraine, to have Kyiv at the table for any peace talks, for European leaders to to aim to deter any future Russian invasion of Ukraine and a "coalition of the willing" will be formed to defend Ukraine and guarantee peace there

Additionally, the UK will be giving Ukraine access to £1.6bn ($2.01bn) to buy new missiles

Europe must do the heavy lifting in any peace deal, Starmer said, but the agreement would need US backing

Assuming that your first statement is correct, the answer to your question would be to find out if they are indeed in the category of "devoid of human decency" or something else.

But we have so many problems as a world, a society, a community, a family; that I don't believe there are enough utter shits out there to support your theory

Trump got around 77M votes last year. People say things like your comment all the time and believe it, it is a kind of truism but that implies that over half of Americans voters are un-engageable. That's not a sensible thing to say, I am sure a percentage of them are. But making obviously incorrect statements is not going to help anything. Maybe talking to idiots won't either, but at least it is a positive action

No need to listen in order to "find out" when people have already shown us who they are.

Perhaps you are right

Exactly. Who was it who said when someone shows you who they are believe them the first time? Maya Angelou, I think.

I cannot believe Trump and his cronies have delivered the West to Putin on a silver platter. I've noticed that there are many disgruntled people who feel this isn't a great loss because they've grown to hate everything about the world we've lived in recently. CoL crises in both the UK and the US have driven that sense of discontent very deep into people's minds but there is still SO MUCH to lose and it breaks my heart that my children may have to suffer the consequences of this naive and entitled collective suicide. Make no mistake, ordinary Russians are miserable. We will be soon just as miserable on both sides of the Pond unless there is a true groundswell of resistance to the ongoing debacle.

@StandFirm

"I cannot believe Trump and his cronies have delivered the West to Putin on a silver platter."

Actually Europe has itself to blame. Every US President has been asking the European NATO countries since Kennedy in the 60s to spend more on defence.

But they didn't, instead they preferred to freeload by relying on US taxpayer funded defence spending and US soldiers lives.

Now that has stopped as the US refocuses its military spending to threats from China rather than Ukraine.

That is not strictly speaking true - or only in the sense that the US wanted Europe to buy more gear from the US. But The US never wanted the creation of a European army (the only way Europe could really become a military super power) and always criticised the French for their drive for military autonomy.

Afghanistan, Kuwait,Iraq..I think you'll find it wasn't only America involved in Those conflict's and lives of other nations also died.

It would work if there was a realistic chance of the UK being invaded or bombed. People would be volunteering let alone being conscripted.

Armed force personnel in WW2 didn't "want" to volunteer or be conscripted, but nor did they want their wives, daughters and mothers being rounded up and raped/gassed. Nor their homes bombed to the ground.

I'm sure the young adults in the Ukraine are "physically and mentally robust" when they're literally on the front line against Russia, being bombed, etc.

It's amazing what you can do when you have to!

Would you or your children die for your country? I don’t see this sort of loyalty for the UK. It’s little more than an economic zone at this point, certainly nothing to die over.

The only ones who would are those pressganged into it because they can’t get a second passport