To be disgusted at the talks between Russia and the US

[SunnyDayInFeb]

So Russia and the US are meeting in Saudia Arabia to carve up Ukraine.

And Ukraine, whose people have been fighting and dying since their country was invaded, haven't even been invited to the table.

It's like we are back in the 19th century with the European colonial powers drawing lines on a map to divide Africa between them.

Who are you sending to be killed because of this ridiculous hyperbole?

Thousands dying a day. These are young men in an age group many of us have

I very much feel for Ukraine in that a deal at this stage could feel the earlier deaths were in vain

Continuing the fighting means many more

The US has leverage due to funding needs

They helped start it, they can help finish it.

It's sad, tough, unbearable, but it needs to be stopped.

Unless the UK wants to take over.

It may be an ignorant post, however I have neighbours who have ran from war torn countries to safety, the only group who returns for holidays and dentist and medical visit are the Ukrainian People.

My Syrian neighbours or my Afghanistan neighbours don't pop back to visit.

DT and VP are lunatics. I hope we can all come to a resolution.

We lost nearly 25% of our country and most of those colonised are happy now, wouldn't pass up the NHS for anything.

The bigger boy always wins.

I do think though that the Russians have been very successful with their propaganda.

I mean if they can get people to believe that the country being attacked and bombed is to blame for the war as they keep outrageously insisting on trying to defend themselves then they can get people to believe anything.

Interesting.

The best thing would be for Russians to fuck off home and leave Ukraine alone.

It's not their country
What zelensky and his government do has fuck all to do with Russia.

Appeasement makes me sick

@Genevieva
"Now this goes slightly over my head, so forgive me if my vocabulary is not wholly precise, but my understanding is that what the US has done is stake a claim to Gaza. This diluted the Israeli claim and gives the US certain obligations towards Gazan residents. It seems Qatar and the UAE will fund the rebuilding of Gaza for Gazans with the aim of making it a new Dubai economic miracle."

This is absolutely NOT the US proposal.

The US sees no future for Palestinians in Gaza - they are to be removed, by force if necessary - and the land turned over to American developers by Israel. Trump even uses terms like Israel "handing" Gaza over to the US, as if it is the property of the Israelis and theirs to hand over. Israel's right-wing Zionists are rubbing their hands with glee - the total destruction of Palestine and it's population has long been their expansionist dream, and the support of Trump is beyond even their wildest dreams.

The best thing would be for Russians to fuck off home and leave Ukraine alone.
Well that's obvious, however it doesn't work like that.

"Something" needs to be done to try to solve the crisis.

It can't go on indefinitely.

"Europe" hasn't even been able to solve the Cyprus problem of Turkish occupation of the Northern part of the island for the last fifty years. So they've not got a good track record of bringing conflicts to a conclusion.

Time to try something different, rather than continue to allow Ukraine to be destroyed and people being killed.

@Bewareofthisonetoo

"Adults"?

You think Trump and Putin are sane adults.

So basically rewind all the way to the first couple of days of invasion, to the areas where Russians made huge advances on foot and disregard years worth of deaths. US should have just said there and then yeah guys you are not going to win this so let us help you to divide 'fairly' and that's that. Anti Russian hysteria was wipped up by US not Ukrainians

Thanks for the lesson.

It was a response to what would be the best outcome.

And I don't recall asking you

You are not unreasonable and I totally agree, but this is not about reason, it’s about male ape power games.

The age of reason has passed.

This is what the post war social contracts, self-supporting economies, and careful political relations were put in place to prevent, but apparently the rich were having too much fun fleecing the rest of us to think. Some of us tried to warn about the social contracts and reason being abandoned, but were ignored. So here we are with an economy entirely in vassal relations to the male apes flinging shit around and few options apparently left. Did you expect respect from those who own us?

Cheers, thank you.

The best thing would be for Russians to fuck off home and leave Ukraine alone.
It's not their country
What zelensky and his government do has fuck all to do with Russia.
Appeasement makes me sick

I am sure that thought has cropped up, in many minds, about the English one time or another.

Appeasement makes me sick

This is valid but also how do you feel about the sheer number of young people dying?

How long would it go on for?

I wonder if Trump is also trying to remove the USA from this debacle as quickly as he can to bring to an end the USAs meddling, which really centred around Bidens involvement in the 2014 Ukraine revolution.

Is it a shere coincidence that his son Hunter's pardon stretches to 2014?

Anyhoo, Zelensky was offered Russian peace if he promised to not join the UN, which would also mean that Ukraine would preserve and act as a buffer zone between Russia and the UN.

This could have happened until a certain Boris Johnson offered Zelensky support to fight on - and here we are now.

As someone whose main source of info is the BBC, can you tell me what sources you use and how you can be sure they are any more reliable? I use the BBC out of habit, I admit. I was born in 1956 and brought up listening to and watching it exclusively. I am genuinely interested in finding alternatives.

Ukraine is already in the UN?

Do you have the first clue what you're talking about?🤣

Any details of this "deal" that Johnson scuppered?

Sounds like Chamberlain's appeasement of Germany to me.

@Genevieva "Greenland will end up getting a handsome stipend for allowing an American naval base to be positioned there."

There have been American bases on Greenland for decades, and Thule/Pituffik Air Base still exists, for which the US pays Denmark a fee.

What Trump is proposing is something entirely different. He wants to buy the country (or even take it by force) so that the US (or rather, so that his donors) can exploit the mineral deposits there.

That’s simply not true. Trump specifically spoke about Gazans only leaving if they wanted to (no coercion) but at least they would have the option this way, which they don’t at the moment. He also personally dislikes Netanyahu and there is no way Qatar and the UAE would be stumping up for redevelopment if they thought the territory would be annexed by Israel. Have you seen the photos of Gaza? It’s totally uninhabitable. It is absolutely necessary for Gazan families to have sanctuary somewhere safe while Gaza is rebuilt. Trump orchestrated the Abraham Accords in his first term in office. He doesn’t have the poor reputation over there that he does here. I don’t have a crystal ball, but it’s absolutely certain that the status quo is not working and a fresh approach that lifts Gazans out of poverty is needed. However, this thread is about Ukraine, so I won’t derail it further.

And back to my OP that something that needs to be done doesn't involve cutting the Ukrainians out from discussions about their own future.

It doesn't involve speaking to the Russians and agreeing stuff before even talking to then.

It doesn't involve conceding everything to the Russians before negotiations have even started.

Does anyone remember the deal Trump agreed in Afganistan? Remind me how that country is doing now?

This is obviously bad because Russia will want to have a sphere of influence that is theirs. That is Eastern Europe to them, and to pretend Russia is neutral about Easterm Europe is wrong. If o were an ex Soviet state I would be very worried.

The EU is totally impotent to do anything on diplomacy. I fear that basically countries without well developed militaries and relations to match with other European countries are very very exposed.

I expect the UK to reach further compacts with military powers in the Europe. There are not many of those unfortunately

European may want the war to go on, but I doubt they will pay for it.

Putin considers Russia to be in a forever war with the West. He is playing the long game. When he dies someone worse will take his place. I feel very sorry for the Russian people who are the cannon fodder for this war.

Ukraine made a mistake when it agreed to sign up to anti-nuclear proliferation treaties in exchange for US and European security guarantees. The message to smaller nations is "get nukes, you can't rely on anyone else to help you".

Trump is ignorant. He has always been Putin's llapdog.Thats why Russia interfere in the US elections. Trump is weak, stupid, easily manipulated and Putin is making him look like a fool. He will give Russia what it wants and make sure he has helped himself to whatever mineral wealth or construction contracts he can loot from Ukraine. In one fell swoop he will ensure that history views him as one of the bad guys. All whilst he views himself as some kind of peace envoy saving people.

Putin wants this phase of peace. He wants to be back in the G8. He wants to build up Russian coffers trading with the ("evil") West. He can give his military time to rebuild. Paste over the recent past. Then in time come back to help himself (or Russia will as he will be dead) to more bits of Eastern Europe as it suits them.

There's not much you can do with bully boy tactics but giving into their demands is a BAD idea. US and Europe would be better presenting a united front and letting Russia run itself into the ground fighting Ukraine. Shit for Ukraine either way. On balance its better for Ukraine if a peace deal can be agreed. Stupid that Trump conceded to all Putin's demands before getting to the table. What a buffoon he is. Couldn't negotiate his way out of a paper bag!

That’s simply not true. Trump specifically spoke about Gazans only leaving if they wanted to (no coercion) but at least they would have the option this way, which they don’t at the moment.
I don't like Trump, however I think most Gazan's will bite his offer, I'd give up a beach in a prison for free roam any day.
Its probably the only opportunity to leave for many, it an absolutely crazy idea but an opportunity for escape too, an opportunity no other leader would think to offer.

Every Ukrainian death is tragic beyond belief

Of course I want it to stop. But the onus should be on stopping the invaders not the invaded