To be disgusted at the talks between Russia and the US

[SunnyDayInFeb]

So Russia and the US are meeting in Saudia Arabia to carve up Ukraine.

And Ukraine, whose people have been fighting and dying since their country was invaded, haven't even been invited to the table.

It's like we are back in the 19th century with the European colonial powers drawing lines on a map to divide Africa between them.

I do think a lot of the time decisions are made for countries and presented and they just have to suck it up. However there’s normally some diplomatic shuffling do it’s a “partnership” rather than do what you are told. There isn’t even a pretence of that here which is what’s shocking.

My bet is Russia keeps ground already taken, No NATO membership for Ukraine. Sanctions get lifted blah de blah, they push forward in another decade or so. Or Ukraine promises rare mineral rights to U.S. in return for support and same happens later on.

Thankfully, most European leaders agree with you. Let’s hope something sensible comes out of the emergency summit.

Well it's an initial meeting to explore avenues for peace that can be taken to Ukraine to kick start peace discussions.

It's being held in Saudi Arabia because they have relationships with both Russia and the USA.

The EU and Ukraine are not involved in the initial talks because it's been impossible to hold these in the past - this approach reflects the view that it will take major powers to start off conflict talks in the initial stages. The EU are not a major power and neither is Ukraine.

Europeans are not invited because they are too hardline. They literally seem to think they are one aid package away from securing Ukraine.

Honestly, nothing may come of it but at least the attempt was made. I’m afraid Europe will meddle and destroy themselves over Russia for what, a third time now? Maybe fourth?

I disagree. It looks like a bad faith attempt to stitch the Ukrainians up to me.

I guess all the neighbouring countries like Poland need to suck it up as well whilst the great powers decide the fate of eastern europe...

This type of thing doesn't exactly have a brilliant history of working out well either does it?

My understanding was that Zelensky had been invited, but has rejected the invitation.

All wars end in discussions at a table. It’s not the Middle Ages any more. There is no monarch to fall from his horse on a battlefield. I think it’s been negligent not to at least try to talk far sooner, before so many people died and so much territory was lost.

I also think our leaders in the west need to reflect on their roles in international conflicts away from home turf. They always launch themselves in with laudable intentions, then get cold feet about the cost etc and pull out. It’s been repeated in pretty much every major conflict since the end of WW2. This time, after covid, western economies are on their knees and simply can’t afford to keep funding this war. It was entirely predictable at the outset that it would end this way.

I teach quite a lot of Ukrainian children. They all have relatives who are either fighting or have died in this conflict and they are all hopeful that this might make a difference - that they might see loved ones again. They care much more about that than anything else, which gives me some peace of mind.

What do you mean by Europe meddling?
Ukraine is in Europe.

The last conflict (cold war) with Russia was due to Russia subjugating and controlling Eastern Europe for 40 years.

The US are quite rightly applying pressure to the EU to pull their weight. Why should the US taxpayer fun everyone's security?

Similar in Gaza I think. No way the US are going to take it over, kick everyone out and build some kind of resort. Just applying pressure to Jordan, Egypt etc to come up with a proposal.

The ukrainians were not invited

Then why was there a headline saying Zelensky had rejected an invitation? Probably poor reporting, but for right odd.

To make him out to look like the big guy when actually he is just a posturer. He is irrelevant -leave it to the adults to sort out.

Anti Russian hysteria? They literally invaded a peaceful country for no fucking reason except ego now a couple of egos are getting together to decide the Ukraine future without giving any care or consideration to the people whose homes and land they destroyed

There wasn't any persecution of the Russian minority. This is typical Russian propaganda to justify their invasion.

And what a horrible way to talk about Ukrainian refugees.

He is the elected leader of the country that is being discussed.

This is pretty nasty stuff tbh

The things I have read about each of these are:

1. The US sees its strategic role in NATO as a naval power protecting the Arctic. It sees mainland European powers as responsible for land defence and expects them to fund that properly.
2. Interestingly, Arabs in the Middle East are not wholly against what Trump said about Gaza. Now this goes slightly over my head, so forgive me if my vocabulary is not wholly precise, but my understanding is that what the US has done is stake a claim to Gaza. This diluted the Israeli claim and gives the US certain obligations towards Gazan residents. It seems Qatar and the UAE will fund the rebuilding of Gaza for Gazans with the aim of making it a new Dubai economic miracle. How realistic that is I don’t know, but it’s certainly interesting and not at all what BBC radio were saying.

Trump needs a bit of credit here, cutting through the situation to stop the death.

It's very much in the interest of the USA that this war continues for as long as possible, and yet here they are trying to crack everyone's head together.

The longer this war continues the more eroded that the USAs chief enemy (Russia) will become. At the same time the USA are providing Ukraine with USA weaponry that is getting to it's end of life, it's likely cheaper to give it to Ukraine than to decommissioning it, and they are using the money granted via Congress to update and replenish the USA armoury with the best equipment they've ever had. It was a win-win, until Trump arrived.

"How realistic that is I don’t know, but it’s certainly interesting and not at all what BBC radio were saying"

Well said. We bang on about how unbiased the Beeb are, how well-informed etc, they really do slant things to push a certain agenda.

He is taking resources from other countries to boost his own ego time to put an end to that. People are too lazy to try to understand the complex background. Real prole are dying. Would you send your own sons to fight? If not, shame on you for wanting it to be even more prolonged.

I think the US worry about Russia and China being strategic allies. Personally, I think they would only be allied for convenience and never trust each other. I think this very old article about China is still relevant here: https://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2014/07/03/where-do-borders-need-to-be-redrawn/why-china-will-reclaim-siberia

Utter nonsense - and dangerous nonsense at that.

If Russia is allowed to keep the territory in Ukraine, then it will only be a matter of time before Putin decides that the Baltic countries are "persecuting" the ethnic Russians in these countries, and that they are causing economic harm to the Russian enclave around Kaliningrad, and using this as a justification for military action against Latvia, Estonia and Lithuania. Trump has already signalled that as the self-proclaimed "leader of the free world" he's quite happy to allow this, particularly if he can then use this as an excuse for annexing Greenland in order to prevent Russia from attempting to gain control over it.

It’s hilarious that you bring up “measured responses” and then start parroting whatever half-baked Kremlin talking points you last saw on RT English or 4chan.

There’s an old proverb you might find useful: better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak up and remove all doubt.

Delusional.
Who are you sending to be killed because of this ridiculous hyperbole?

I think you are being somewhat hysterical. There are a lot of reasons why this is not likely to be the outcome. But EU member states do need to arm themselves properly. And the Greenland comments were not about annexing. You need to get your head inside the Trump playbook a little more. Eg Mexico has had tariffs delayed in return for policing their border and preventing illegal flows of narcotics. Panama and Greenland are both seen as strategically important to be within the American, not the Chinese sphere of influence. Panama will stop cosying up to China and Greenland will end up getting a handsome stipend for allowing an American naval base to be positioned there.