To be disgusted at the talks between Russia and the US

[SunnyDayInFeb]

So Russia and the US are meeting in Saudia Arabia to carve up Ukraine.

And Ukraine, whose people have been fighting and dying since their country was invaded, haven't even been invited to the table.

It's like we are back in the 19th century with the European colonial powers drawing lines on a map to divide Africa between them.

I share a different perspective and get attacked for no reason. It would be good for you to understand the perspective of a somewhat conservative American.

It is not a good habit for you to think everyone who disagrees with you is some sort of bot or shill. Many Americans don’t want to support Ukraine and quite frankly care far more about domestic challenges, of which we sadly have many.

I don’t want to understand your perspective, thank you. The fact that you voted to put a mad man in the White House tells me everything I need to know.

I understand that that some people in America don't understand the importance of being part of the world and feel money is the most important thing. On here though, if it walks like a duck, and talks like a duck, then I'm likely to assume it's a duck.

If it doesn’t want that assumption, it should change its approach because as we all know from Vance yesterday, appearances matter.

You aren’t the only person here. If you aren’t interested in this conversation, then don’t engage

I’m very interested in the conversation, just not the contributions of someone who votes for megalomaniac lunatics.

I don’t understand the need to say this is a bot or shill account, when what I think and feel is actually quite an average American position, particularly if you aren’t a liberal interventionist (in the poli sci sense). You don’t need to go to Moscow to hear this …

So just say you don’t care about what most Americans think about Ukraine. Just getting funding for this war has not been an easy sell domestically.

So do we. More than the States, I would be willing to bet. We still followed you into the Iraq war at enormous expense to our country, essentially to avenge 9/11 and at the request of your President. We’re still feeling the effects now and will have a heightened terror risk basically forever.

It’s not being funded any more, is it? What Americans think about Ukraine has been irrelevant since Trump’s inauguration. It’s all between Trump and Putin now.

Anyone who uses generalisations as a gotcha has lost the argument. Show me the evidence that most Americans agree with you.
We know that getting funding was a hard ask for Biden. Trump and his cult were blocking it everywhich way because of- as we saw yesterday-Trumps petty grudges.

Please show me where I've said you are a shill, you won't be able to evidence that either?

We get your perspective Ringo, but tbh since it's just isolationist, it's not that interesting in the discussion of a problem that will persist for Europe.

As you point out, not your problem. But also, just a bit tedious for the rest of us given your limited perspective

You shouldn’t have done that. We shouldn’t have done that. Iraq was a total and complete disaster.

And so is escalating war with Russia.

(funnily enough I was a Democrat back then and I still think GWB was our worst president ever)

Nobody wants to escalate war with Russia. Equally very few people this side of the Atlantic think Ukraine should just roll over and it deserves our support. Especially now the US has given up on it.

War with Russia is escalating whether you’re in or out. Please, please pick up a history book and familiarise yourself with Putin’s worldview and what he wants.

If we support Ukraine we can keep the battle lines far away from ourselves. If we don’t, we will be trading temporary reprieve for them edging closer and closer.

You cannot exist as a solitary nation under an iron dome surrounded by enemies. How is that going for Israel?

And I agree re Iraq. But that was to address the ‘nobody ever does anything for us in return’ that I’ve heard solidly for about a week now. It’s not that nobody does anything for the US, it’s that as the biggest economy in the world, anything the (inevitably) smaller countries do will be unimpressive to you, even if proportionately they’re giving a lot.

You can convince yourself that the US is sacred and would never be challenged, but you’re wrong.

Didn’t say you specifically but there are several posts debating on whether I’m some sort of paid shill.

….. for opinions that are actually very common in the US

What attracts you to this parenting website? Have you been a mumsnetter for long?

What part of not caring what’s common in the US don’t you understand? Your country is now an irrelevance apart from the damage your president will continue to inflict on the rest of us. That’s what isolationism does.

Usually the practice is to ignore posts that aren’t interesting to you.

What you should not do is write several posts wondering about my background.

And wtf about the retired general. Lol. I want to see those posts! I can assure you I’m nowhere near retirement age!

I agree.

We now need to proceed as if the USA doesn’t exist.

We need to urgently raise the money for 5% military spending and somehow convince the EU to do the same (is my opinion)

@RingoJuice - I think you confuse me with someone else.

But what I think you might find valuable is knowing how alien your perspective is in a European country.

Old enough to remember the Cold War?

I know that, I live it every day. But Europe must go its own way, tbh it needed to happen. It’s a logical outcome if you really believe Russia is a threat to Western Europe

And I don't wonder. You seem either to be someone paid, or you are a very conservative American. To those of us who don't like Russia, the difference in effect is moot.

We wonder about Trump in the UK, but we also wonder why someone like you, who describes themselves as a mainstream American, would bother to come here and discuss what to you does not matter.

I agree.

I think the States now needs to exist in complete isolation, construct its iron dome and try not to descend into all-out civil war within 10 years.

There are multiple issues with European defence without the US 1) the US will sell their equipment but at a premium price (no mate's rates here) 2) US equipment comes with numerous strings attached such as the dependence on US contractors to upgrade and maintain (you'd think that you own the stuff but hey ho, still subject to the US's goodwill is my understanding) 3) the EU will be hit by ridiculous Trump tariffs which are not going to help its economy 4) Only France I believe can independently operate its nukes, we can't.
For decades the US/NATO/Europe relationship was based on a mutual understanding of who is responsible for what. The US didn't push for the creation of a European army to compete with NATO (and used the UK to impede that as well). They also kept tight control over their equipment and resources - that was the foundation of US international power. Now, it's like a husband saying to his SAHM wife of decades that she should have been working all this time and she's on her own as he sails off into the sunset with his OW...