DH and DSD(10)'s hygiene

[LemonExpert]

Step daughter is 10, I have known her and her dad since she was a toddler but have only been together for 3 years, he is overwise pretty much a single parent. I understand that not having her mum involved and her age makes things difficult for DSD.

Over the last year or so and I wont go into details but her hygiene is poor which shows in her appearance and smell. This is only getting worse, gentle encouragement, a better routine and nice products etc isn't working, if it is brought up she just gets increasingly upset or annoyed.

DP has pretty much given up saying it's not that big a deal, that him and all his friends used to skip showers and smell at her age and that he doesn't want to be upsetting and embarrassing her. That we should leave her be, be kind to her and the problem will sort on her own.

I think hes letting her down massively and that it is very different for girls than it is boys, when I was her age I remember most girls starting to put extra effort into their appearances and unfortunately the ones being left out or bullied. I want this to be sorted quickly and think its better she be embarrassed and upset at home than teased at school.

Am I being unreasonable? Is this a normal phase that's not a big deal and should I not interfere?

@LemonExpert

I also don't think it is a sensory / ND issue as there was no evidence of this when she was younger.
I think it's a confidence/self esteem issue as well as laziness and wanting to test the boundaries

I wldnt discount sensory issues just bcos they haven't shown up previously OP. My niece only started avoiding at this age but had no issues prior.
It may not be something she's even able to verbalise - it may not be a pronounced like I hate the sensation of water - it could feel just aversive to her. In ND it often is v difficult being able to label feelings & physical sensations in oneself & "laziness" is often misunderstood in adhd where being overwhelmed by the task manifests itself in avoidance of them. Executive function issues in ND can make motivation & ability to carry out seemingly normal daily tasks like teeth brushing eg or showering washing a real challenge. There's also demand avoidance in ND where being able to carry out basic routine tasks that should come with ease are to others are in fact extremely difficult & aversive to an ND individual. It doesn't matter if the person is able to do other basic tasks with ease either. ND in girls especially can be very easily concealed & not show itself in the now outdated stereotype attached to the condition.

She’s 10. Far too young for spa treatments, massage and nails!!! Good god what are u trying to turn her into?

Some of this sounds a little bit like the 10 year old is boss. If she hasn’t washed properly then she goes back in, it isn’t a negotiation.

My DD (12) sometimes has days when she can’t be bothered, is too tired, it’s too cold. But she ends up washing, because I won’t quit until she does.

Mine also insists on long hair, she still has it cut. It’s needed to get rid of dead ends and to keep it healthy. Have you tried a mobile hairdresser that’ll come to you?

I was going to mention shopping for some fancy products for her but I see that’s already been mentioned. Is there a bath? Have you tried some bath bombs?

FWIW, I have found Mitchum antiperspirant to be amazing. It works so much better than the other brands.

You need to fight harder on this, for her sake. There will be tantrums and shouting but she will be at secondary school soon and kids will make her life an absolute misery if she smells.

Maybe take her shopping to a shop like Lush or similar to buy products she might like?

Are you certain she can manage her hair? I'm just thinking that it wouldn't be as obvious she couldn't manage it until this sort of age, when the hair gets more oily.

Is she worrying about soap in her eyes? Would some mild shampoo help.

In my experience stuff like this was more about making it boring for her to drag it out and repeating it until done, as telling her she smells etc won't be helping.

Also possibly unpopular solution to make a deal with a 10 year old but.. could you say she needs to shower every other day, or 3 times a week for example, but it needs to be done properly? I feel like having a good wash less regularly would be better than grudgingly rinsing yourself daily!

It’s a tricky one for a single dad of girls with hygiene as it gets to a point where dad doesn’t go into the bathroom to support washing but mum’s might still do. 10 is a funny inbetween age. My youngest daughter was quite smelly around age 9/10. It took a while to find a deodorant that worked well for her. We did actually try those ‘wild’ and ‘fussy’ natural deodorants which do smell lovely but they actually made my daughter smell really bad when she was sweating. I even tried them myself and found myself offensively smelly until introverted back to a decent deodorant with aluminium in (I do have hyperhydrosis though). We have found the dove and Mitchum deodorants with the 48hr protection better than most. Used every morning.

I did used to supervise showers a lot with my children due to them needing help with hair washing up to a certain age. My 12 year old is quite capable now though but it did take a lot of initial support. My older teen is autistic though and finds showers difficult for sensory reasons and also requires me to be stood over her whilst she’s showering otherwise she would just get wet and not clean. This does mean that when she bathes at dad’s house (he’s no shower only a bath) that she doesn’t always successfully wash herself to the same standard.

I don’t think insisting on daily showers is totally necessary. I usually insist every other day and if we get daily it’s great. There’s also alot of research saying daily showers aren’t particularly good for skin. I also found with my youngest that starting secondary school suddenly improved hygiene routines.

As for the fishy comments. I’ve had both of my girls to the GP as when they get their periods they often smell fishy. We have had the antibiotics however the GPs have said that some people have a natural fishier smell than others. Mine use washable period products so they are stored in a dry wash at until enough to wash, and when I empty the bag there’s often the same smell.

My youngest has discovered the So range of body sprays. Usually smells decent these days combining with deodorant. Occasionally on a PE day I notice their BO and encourage a shower.

If dad isn’t going to step up and support with the hygiene then you may need to tackle it gently. Offer new products to try?? Take her shopping for a girly pamper day. Make sure clothes are washed and dried properly. My kids always come back from my ex’s with a certain smell to them as his house does smell a hot musty and so do their clothes if he’s washed them. I usually rewash.

Edited to add my autistic teen’s issues around showering/bathing are for various sensory reasons. They don’t like the sensation of shampoo. Hate getting soap and water on their eyes. Doesn’t like certain smells. Doesn’t like stripping off and getting wet. Would literally just stand there and get wet without prompts to wash certain parts. Hypermobility (common in autistic people) means she struggles with hair washing as she doesn’t scrub her hair hard enough to wash, arms get tired when above heard etc). The demand itself causes an issue. It’s a battle every other day. Even when she reminds me she needs a shower, getting her into to shower can take ages.

This is not true. I was ten in the 1970s. We always had regular baths, at least every other day, if not daily. Hair was washed weekly. We played outside a lot, but also washed ourselves if we were dirty. Smelly children or children with runny noses were always targets. At this age, I had very major surgery on my left ear. The continuous infections l suffered caused a horrible, smelly discharge. My parents did their best to mitigate this as best they could, but I was very conscious of it and, sadly, other children noticed, although I always had a group of friends. The pre-teen years can be tricky for girls as hormones are starting to come into play and emotions can be all over the place. Friendship groups can be fragile, too, with a lot of drama.

I was replying to @SteveBognor, but the quote didn't come up.

My young cousin ia a derm. He (& his colleagues ) agree that showering everyday is too often, over washing is often a cause of some of the issues he sees. Advocates 3- 4 times weekly and a sink wash of underarms, navel, groin area & feet with a mild soap on other days.

I must have just grown up in a skanky town then unbeknownst to my innocent little self at the time!

Honestly though, you don’t get properly clean with a sink wash in those areas and it’s far more effort to do that than have a bath!

personally I bath / shower most days but only actually clean the aforementioned areas rather than scrubbing my arms for example. And often put an emollient in the water. I don’t suffer with dry skin.

You are doing the right thing, soon she will be starting her period and secondary school so it's lucky your there because if she gets upset now she certainly will when the other kids start noticing in senior school and kids can be mean.

Keep trying please for the child's sake.

Another thing I don't understand is some people have a shower before they go to bed rather than in the morning, I only have one shower a day but in the morning otherwise I would still feel dirty.

I have been in work for 28 years so far and called in sick 5 days over that period and that was because my child was in work but I have told work that if my shower broke then I would be calling in sick (to fix it) because I'd have to have that morning shower (never have baths)

Please stop pussy footing around this child as you're not doing her any favours. If she doesn't change her ways before she attends the comp, she's in for a lonely torrid time. If she screams and balls if she's told to go to bed and doesn't want to, does she get to stay up all night? Probably not but the point is you can't persuade children to do everything, sometimes they have to be told what's expected of them whether they like it or not, Tell your DP to stop avoiding tough conversations/situations, we all have to have them. Tell her father exactly what will happen in the comp if she doesn't get her act together about hygiene. Perhaps speak to the doctor and see if there's help available from district nurses, health visitors etc. If neither of you are able to tackle this. Basically, your DP needs to man up for the sake of his daughter. Best of luck, but remember whose technically the child is in this situation. She won't thank either of you long term if this carries on unaddressed..

You need to bring in a 3rd party whom she can respect. Maybe an older girl maybe a pretty 20ish gal. Maybe a therapist.

Shes also been offered and even booked to have spa treatments, a massage, nails etc but has refused to go, obviously she is embarrassed and knows she isnt clean so doesn't want other people to know but refuses to do anything about it.

Sorry OP I don’t think she knows she isn’t clean - I think she believes she is clean enough & is maintaining a minimum standard. I think what the issue is that she is not computing the minimum standard. The socially acceptable standard. Tbh she is probably clean enough if you looked at it from a scientific POV but she’s not from a socially acceptable standard.
I think this further points to ND as this ability to guage what’s socially acceptable is often challenged on ND & spelt out. Ok so you’ve spelt it out to her that she’ll get bullied etc etc & she still doesn’t think she needs to do it to the standard you’re expecting. There could also be some body dysphoria going on which can emerge in girls esp with ND. The onset of puberty & body changes etc can cause dysphoria - a literal disgust with one’s own biological body & genitals results in aversion, avoidance of getting washed, showering, swimming etc. It’s why so many young ND girls have struggled with trans identities & the desire not to be female any more. It can even manifest in them only using the bathroom as little as possible because it’s so distressing to be confronted with their own body. Her not swimming & using changing rooms is another clue here too.

Have you or dh helped her know how to wash? My kids seemed to think they just needed to stand in the shower and let the water wash over them. I had to show them how the gently massage the shampoo into their scalp and the same for washing.

Also my son started needed a different shampoo at that age as the normal one wasn't working. I found baby shampoo with no conditioner is great for greasy hair.

Please never use, or tell anyone to use, soap 'between the legs'. Soap and vulvas are not a good mix...a sure way to thrush or BV. Clean water down there only ladies! Your body will thank you 😊

Maybe she doesn’t like showers. Let her have a bath make it nice with bubbles put a candle on make fun its ’spa Time’. Bubble bath would at least mean she has some skin cleansing contact. Maybe take her shopping and let her pick the scents she likes?

Not on spectrum? DD still doesn’t like showers- will do it if no option but prefers baths. Took a longtime to get hair care sorted and I had to wash and rinse even into secondary but obvs my dtr so nakedness not an issue.

so agree it can’t be ignored but try a different tack.

Not sure why you think a sink wash of ‘those areas’ doesn’t get it clean? Water and soap are involved in both.

Fir some people with skin problems too much bathing is an issue but so are the types of chemically laden soaps and gels.

So she had a tantrum and got her own way. She didn't have to wash properly and then it wasn't mentioned again in case it set her off. It sounds like you are walking on eggshells around a ten year old. It doesn't matter if the upset is genuine. She still has to wash. You can tell her that you can see she's upset, you can acknowledge it, but it's happening anyway, and you will not give up until it's done. Everyone has to do stuff they don't want to do. That's just life.

'You're working yourself up about nothing' = unhelpful. It doesn't give her any guidance as to how to handle the situation, put in a boundary, or help her regulate her emotions.

'I can see that you are upset. But your hair isn't clean. It needs to be washed again. We will do it over the sink and I will help and then we will watch a film. No argument.'

Stop crying, stop interrupting, listen to me. It's fine to say all of these things.

And maybe it's time you did get cross with her about it. Some kids need a good bollocking from time to time. They need to see clearly where the boundary is and how far they can push you. All she's learning so far is that she gets her own way if she cries and plays the victim, which is going to make life very difficult in two, three, five years time when it's not hair, it's behaviours that really are serious. It will not help her in adult life, either.

It's okay to get cross with a child who is being a brat. It's not a pleasant thing to have to do. But sometimes it's necessary. As long as it's not every day and it's not over things that don't matter, it's fine.

Does she get checked for nits? Imo hair washed properly or it gets cut off. She could be heaving with nits!
As far as asd is concerned girls mask it well.. Dd was 15 before we realised...

Agree with others: don't give DSD any choice. My DSS was pretty awful about hair washing and I would tell him I was going to wash his hair over the bath, and get on with it.

I also think PP has a point that SD may think that as she has wet her hair it is "good enough" and that you're all annoying her necessarily.

Due to this I would really keep repeating the point that wetting hair is not washing it therefore it's not been washed. It doesn't count as washed unless you do a) b) c).

It's not "you haven't washed it properly" it's "you haven't washed your hair, washing your hair means X"