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Original poster

A man undressing in front of a woman without her consent is an act of intimidation and control. Men do not acquire consent by identifying as women

748 replies

SernieBanders · 04/02/2025 17:56

How and why has it become anything but voyeurism and control?

What on earth can be done to reverse the madness?

Trans staff should always be given dignified, adequate, separate changing spaces. Females should never feel cowed, silenced, intimidated into putting up with a man looking at them half naked.

Background.
https://www.scotsman.com/news/scottish-news/why-scots-nurse-sandie-peggie-has-taken-nhs-fife-to-tribunal-over-dr-beth-upton-transgender-dispute-4974664

(Phrase inspired by a tweet from x.com/SonyaDouglas )

OP posts:
Thread gallery
13
AnSolas · 04/02/2025 19:13

BoredZelda · 04/02/2025 19:02

@AnSolas

I mean, I did say it was from the BBC report, which is right there on the front page of the BBC website if you take 10 seconds to open a web browser, but here you go..... www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cx2q8zzx0d7o

@BoredZelda

Thank you.

I dont like having to switch between pages to check match blocks of text ..... 10 seconds time to paste a source link

spannasaurus · 04/02/2025 19:15

BoredZelda · 04/02/2025 19:05

The fact that Dr Upton is a man is central to her case. Not being able to state this in the tribunal would be a complete injustice.

If her defence of bullying is that men shouldn't be allowed in changing rooms, she isn't going to get on very well. Especially if the allegation of bullying is centred around her bullying a transgender woman.

But, if she wants to go that route, I think most lawyers would be able to make that distinction without misgendering.

Asking a man to leave a female changing room is not bullying.

delvan · 04/02/2025 19:16

Anyone got a picture of this man Upton? I've searched and can find nowt.

If one party can be pictured in the media surely the other can also, or is there some injunction on this in relation to Upton? If

BoredZelda · 04/02/2025 19:16

I dont like having to switch between pages to check match blocks of text ..... 10 seconds time to paste a source link

Actually, takes a bit more than that, but I'm happy to help.

It wasn't exactly war and peace to remember and not sure why you want to QA my work, but you do you. Did I pass the audit?

Helleofabore · 04/02/2025 19:18

Clarabell77 · 04/02/2025 18:37

Okay, fair enough, just wondered.

There is another case that will be going through in the future about a similar situation in Darlington. Over 30 nurses complained there and nothing was really done to fix the situation. I believe 5 or 6 of those nurses are taking their NHS trust to tribunal.

BoredZelda · 04/02/2025 19:19

Asking a man to leave a female changing room is not bullying.

From the reports, it's clear there wasn't one isolated incident.

Even so, according to NHS Fife's guidance it is exactly that. A fact she has acknowledged. The correct procedure would have been for her to talk to a manager in that situation.

spannasaurus · 04/02/2025 19:20

BoredZelda · 04/02/2025 19:19

Asking a man to leave a female changing room is not bullying.

From the reports, it's clear there wasn't one isolated incident.

Even so, according to NHS Fife's guidance it is exactly that. A fact she has acknowledged. The correct procedure would have been for her to talk to a manager in that situation.

She did several times.

maddening · 04/02/2025 19:21

BoredZelda · 04/02/2025 18:53

"The nurse also confirmed that she had "strong opinions" and an admiration for US President Donald Trump."

"One text from the nurse said she was "shaking like a leaf" after encountering Dr Upton in the changing room, adding: "Everyone sticks up for the minority."

"Dr Upton's complaint alleged that Ms Peggie left a patient, who was in a serious condition, when the doctor appeared in the cubicle. It was alleged that Ms Peggie asked Dr Upton to complete observations for her - a task which would normally be completed by a nurse."

All from the BBC report.

I would put money on the fact that someone with strong opinions hasn't been quietly getting along with Dr Upton. She actually put a motion forward in court to be allowed to misgender Dr Upton and was keen that the case was heard in public. This is not someone who just has an issue with changing rooms.

Either way, she's got the attention she wanted, and if she loses it will just be more grist for the mill, I guess. It would be great if these issues could be addressed in a better way, instead of this kind of noise whipping up a storm.

Bring in the storm - the TRAs have been shouting down women, silencing them, refusing to debate - let the light shine on the issue - as none of the TRA ideology or arguments stand up to any inspection.

JazzyJelly · 04/02/2025 19:22

BoredZelda · 04/02/2025 18:59

I would think that perhaps this thread might give a clue to one of the reasons surely?

Nope. Unless you are suggesting people go through a gender change just to go into female changing rooms? Which seems very unlikely.

I saw a video of a man literally talking about how he dresses as a woman to go into the women's changing rooms.

Quote: "I'll always get misgendered but it pays off. Open up the shower door and it's just tits and ass hanging around." He then advises another cross-dressing man: "But you can't be drooling".

x.com/ripx4nutmeg/status/1842462462987087872

cariadlet · 04/02/2025 19:22

delvan · 04/02/2025 19:16

Anyone got a picture of this man Upton? I've searched and can find nowt.

If one party can be pictured in the media surely the other can also, or is there some injunction on this in relation to Upton? If

I think it's an attempt to stop people thinking "that's a man!"

There are photos on twitter but you have to look hard. I've got a screenshot but I don't think we can post pictures on Mumsnet at the moment after the awful events of the other night.

Bayonetlightbulb · 04/02/2025 19:24

BoredZelda · 04/02/2025 18:59

I would think that perhaps this thread might give a clue to one of the reasons surely?

Nope. Unless you are suggesting people go through a gender change just to go into female changing rooms? Which seems very unlikely.

I don't think it is as unlikely as some people might like to think. (Well just access to female only spaces not JUST changing rooms but I feel the extrapolation is still specific enough)

AccidentallyWesAnderson · 04/02/2025 19:24

BoredZelda · 04/02/2025 18:59

I would think that perhaps this thread might give a clue to one of the reasons surely?

Nope. Unless you are suggesting people go through a gender change just to go into female changing rooms? Which seems very unlikely.

What's a 'gender change'?

delvan · 04/02/2025 19:25

cariadlet · 04/02/2025 19:22

I think it's an attempt to stop people thinking "that's a man!"

There are photos on twitter but you have to look hard. I've got a screenshot but I don't think we can post pictures on Mumsnet at the moment after the awful events of the other night.

Show quote history

No don't try post any pics of him, there must be some sort of injunction against it, otherwise why haven't we seen pics, just like those of the nurse? Anyway I think the photo option on MN is on hold for now anyway.

I'm not on twix.

Helleofabore · 04/02/2025 19:25

Considering the only commonality now between people with transgender identities (including the 130+ gender identities) since a transgender academic wrote last year that being trans is not a medical condition, is that it is a individual’s philosophical belief about themselves, what other group’s philosophical belief get to be prioritised over the needs (including safeguarding needs) or female people?

JazzyJelly · 04/02/2025 19:27

BoredZelda · 04/02/2025 19:19

Asking a man to leave a female changing room is not bullying.

From the reports, it's clear there wasn't one isolated incident.

Even so, according to NHS Fife's guidance it is exactly that. A fact she has acknowledged. The correct procedure would have been for her to talk to a manager in that situation.

Exactly. He persistently used the female changing room despite being a man.

ItsAToughie · 04/02/2025 19:27

I've just posted a link above with this man's picture

Helleofabore · 04/02/2025 19:28

BoredZelda · 04/02/2025 19:19

Asking a man to leave a female changing room is not bullying.

From the reports, it's clear there wasn't one isolated incident.

Even so, according to NHS Fife's guidance it is exactly that. A fact she has acknowledged. The correct procedure would have been for her to talk to a manager in that situation.

She did. She was told the first time that the manager would ‘sort it’. It didn’t get sorted.

At what point did this male person become female in anyway?

Why should this male person get special treatment over any other male person?

lifeturnsonadime · 04/02/2025 19:28

ItsAToughie · 04/02/2025 19:27

I've just posted a link above with this man's picture

Good grief. He didn't make an ounce of effort.

For all of the victim blamers whatever happened to 'I believe her'?

Trans ideology is a predators charter.

delvan · 04/02/2025 19:30

I'm guessing for any court appearance, the facial hair will be zoomed off and and a nice hairband will appear to hide the receding locks. Add some subtle make up and a dress, and voila. Rebuttal 101.

But bio women know.....

spannasaurus · 04/02/2025 19:30

If I, a woman, was in a changing room and a female colleague came in and explained that she was very embarrassed because her period had started unexpectedly and she had bled all over her scrubs so would I mind giving her some privacy to sort herself out, I would leave the room if I didn't need to be there.
Why couldn't dr Upton do the same?

BoredZelda · 04/02/2025 19:32

She did several times.

Indeed she said she had, but if it were such a problem, the next step is to escalate it with upper management. Or are we happy that someone can choose to go against workplace policy, as long as we agree with their stance.

If she had decided she didn't like the policy that said she wasn't allowed to harass a muslim employee for having regular prayer breaks, would we be ok with that?

Everyone has a right to feel comfortable in their workplace. NHS Fife should be providing a mix of changing spaces so that everyone has a place they feel safe. This case isn't going to change that policy. NHS Fife made that clear when they said her bringing the case was vexatious. All this serves to do is whip up more froth. If there is widespread support for her among her colleagues, it should have been pretty easy to have NHS Fife be forced to provide better accommodations. Other organisations have done so.

Clap and cheer this woman all you want, unfortunately she has not helped the cause in any way.

spannasaurus · 04/02/2025 19:34

UK law requires workplaces to have single sex facilities. If NHS Fife had provided these there none of this would have happened.

AnSolas · 04/02/2025 19:34

delvan · 04/02/2025 19:16

Anyone got a picture of this man Upton? I've searched and can find nowt.

If one party can be pictured in the media surely the other can also, or is there some injunction on this in relation to Upton? If

The papers had to get a court order to publish so it depends on what the court allowed
they are unlikely to attach any image which would get their reporting restricted.

And is a picture needed to reach a conclusion on the substance of the issue?

BoredZelda · 04/02/2025 19:34

What's a 'gender change'?

Whatever you want it to be, or not. Whatever it is that men are supposedly doing just to get in to changing rooms (because they don't have ample opportunity to harass women in other ways if they want to)